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Does the bill include all military installation closures and those that are on European territories? For example Greenland. If MAGA wants out, then GTFO and I do not want hear any crying afterwards because that will give the Europeans every excuse not purchase US made weapons. I’m certain US MIC lobbyists will weasel their way in to tear apart the bill.
He’s just stirring shit to get his name out there isn’t he?
Utahns generally don’t like to draw attention to themselves as firebrands (e.g. Mitt Romney, Orrin Hatch), so methinks the Senator is planning to get into the 2028 presidential primary.
Australia really needs to close Pine Gap as well.
The press I saw from nato meet where really disturbing as in they where blatantly sucking up on him… so maybe there was something known already. Also the Iran stunt is incredible, what is happening?
As directed by Vladamir Putin.
Honestly, NATO might be better off without them
Agreed. Drumpf is Pootins “man”*on the inside. Look to him to delay and prevaricate any NATO decision, and generally try to sabotage them
- Drumph is NOT a man. He’s a cowardly little orange shit weasel.
Why do you think that? How would losing half the military assets and technology would benefit NATO?
Half the military and technology assets that won’t ever actually be used to help NATO under Trump.
He’ll veto every action that goes against Russia… Which is what NATO was originally formed to do…
The US is great at spending money in the military, but it absolutely sucks at actual war.
Look how they wasted trillions in Afghanistan to surrender to the Taliban.
the US military exists solely to funnel tax payer money to military shareholders.
Actually, if you’re curious, look up how many wars the US has actually outright won on their own without being part of a coalition of allies.
The answer is shockingly few.
Even their great revolution needed help from an, at the time, true superpower i.e. the French.
checked a wiki page about that.
it’s frankly embarrassing how much the US military actually sucks.
likely human history most expensive military, and a complete waste of resources
Yeah but we won the war om werewolves.
That was to funnel money, steal gold, and oil.
in a way, the “mission accomplished” was true
I’ll grant you it’s a big racket, it’s corrupt, it’s inefficient, but I don’t think it’s a skill issue.
I wouldn’t consider failing to win the hearts and minds of the local populace using violence a military failure rather than a policy failure.
Ukraine showed that modern warfare is a different game than it used to.
it’s s resource war, cheap drones can cause lots of damage, and it is far more costly to fight them. long range rockets, v defense systems…
and given that US have painfully expensive toys, they won’t be able to hold of again a cheap enemy.
yhea, Maybe the F22 can outmanoeuvre another airplane in a dogfight, but who tf needs a dogfight? the enemy can just launch a volley of self guided missiles that costs 100x to intercept.
They want out because it’s stopping to be a market for the US military industries, as Europe increasingly wants to spend domestically. As such, it now has very little interest.
US: We want you to spend more on defence!
Europe: Ok, we will buy more, from our own companies!
US: That’s not what I meant! I’m going home!Cause and effect are a little twisted here. Trump was already undermining NATO during is first term by saying European members should spend more. They didn’t agree at the time, but the Ukraine War proved that Europe really did need a more domestic MIC, and now they are.
Trump wasn’t saying it in the first place because he thought it would help NATO.
They wanted to leave during Trump’s first term because it helps Russia’s war with Europe
The increased spending is just meant to make the incumbents unpopular so the Russian backed candidates can win
That’s probably a factor as well.
Isn’t this the same psycho whose reaction to Minnesota politicians being assassinated was conspiracy theories?
Great!! Fuck right off USA!!! Without you idiotic dipshits in NATO the rest of the aligned countries don’t have to listen to your moronic whining to spend $ on US defense weaponry/planes etc. You won’t be missed and piss off. From Canada’s POV we’re really looking forward to spending billions on Saab Gripens - so we can protect ourselves from you.
hello Russian shill.
Are you high? The US president is literally a Putin fluffer. But please, go on.
🙄🙄🙄
yes!
and…?
Just removing the US from another world stage
Soon we will be completely irrelevant
Which is the plan
Except they have the largest nuclear arsenal and the world biggest navy. They can’t be ignored.
My brother-in-law is career Navy and he says they’d get mopped by the Chinese.
Eeeeehhh, if you just look at numbers of boats, yes. The US Navy has far, far more experience, though. Drones are also going to change the game in ways we’re only starting to see with the Ukraine War. With that, the answer might be “everyone’s boats are sunk now”.
China probably couldn’t gain air superiority over Taiwan, and without that, an invasion will fail. That will be true even if the US ends up losing more boats.
sounds like E1 speak to me. I’m sure your BIL is a lovely cadet, but he should learn when to turn-to and stfu.
He’s an officer and over 20 years now. This discussion took place shortly after he gave me a tour of the bridge of the carrier he was assigned to at the time. The terminals were running Windows XP. This was 7-8 years ago tops.
ah, so you’re full of shit and know nothing.
Gonna be as isolated at North Korea by the end of this administration. As trusted too.
I keep getting this sinking feeling that this is all leading up to a precise and coordinated attack of evil.
Russia bombards the EU, the US attacks Greenland and Canada, while Israel finally bulldozes Gaza and Iran. China takes Taiwan and the south sea.
All at the same time so NATO is overwhelmed and can’t decisively defend it all without risking spreading too thin. No matter what happens, one of the bad guys gains ground.
I honestly have no idea if this is even possible, it’s based on a dream I had a few weeks ago.
Disturbing thought though.
The thing is the EU is mostly concerned about Europe, while the US wants to play world police. So if China would invade Taiwan and NATO is without the US, I’m not sure they are going to get involved, it would open the gate for Russia. If the US is still part of NATO I’m not sure what will happen as it’s not an article 5 event. So the other NATO countries are not automatically involved even if the US is.
Russia is losing against Ukraine, the fuck they gonna do against EU, unless they use nukes in which case who cares, it’s game over
Russia has an army that is capable of invading another country. The only country in NATO that have done that is the US. I don’t think Russia invading the whole of the EU is a realistic possibility but grabbing a few ex Soviet countries off the border…
Of the 190 odd countries in the world the UK have invaded something like 175 of them.
You are talking complete nonsense.
Israel might bulldoze Gaza and maybe a few Mashriq countries, but it would suffocate on Iran. That’s a fucking big country.
Graveyard of empires for a reason. They can try to OORAH!! MISSLES AWAY!!! Iran all they want, the resulting occupation will NEVER be a peaceful one, as there will ALWAYS be rebels in the hills and deserts.
Israel, Iran, China, and Taiwan are all outside the scope of NATO.
Canada, Greenland, and most of the EU do fall under NATO protection though. It’s a defensive alliance with well defined boundaries, member countries may have interests in other parts of the world, but since none of Israel, Iran, China, or Taiwan are NATO members it’s not something NATO deals with. Unless one of those countries were to attack NATO of course.
Russia is in no shape to make war on Europe right now, they have their hands full with just Ukraine, and face economic collapse. Iran is in a similar situation. Trump has stopped his 51st state talk, but he’s insane so you never know. China invading Taiwan? Trump is weak (he only talks tough) so you never know. But China is authoritarian and as we’ve seen of late authoritarian regimes don’t seem to be doing well running military campaigns so it’s possible they don’t even have the capability of invading Taiwan.
China might have a 2 year window coming up where it’s even possible to invade Taiwan. Their military has modernized a lot, but they probably aren’t quite to the point of being able to pull it off. At the same time, they are looking at a demographic cliff from the long term implications of the One Child policy.
It’s possible this window as already closed. That said, authoritarian regimes have started wars before that were terrible ideas.
Yeah with how effective drones have been in Ukraine (especially in hitting the Russian Navy) I kinda doubt they’ll have the capability. I feel like Taiwan is probably developing the capability to mass produce drones right now. They most definitely have the technology. Amphibious invasions are really hard to pull off, and China doesn’t have a lot of naval experience. And nobody has ever done it with a thousand drone boats in the water.
And yup, authoritarians do stupid things with their military, we saw that already with Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. So the question is, how stupid is Xi Jinping? I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
I can see trump believing something so stupid as that, and putin might saber rattle about it, but the majority of the world, and china/india especially in this situation, probably would not go along with it. Europe still has functioning nuclear capabilities. Putin does not want nukes hitting his country, full stop. China does not want a nuclear situation kicking off with their neighbor to the north, and knows that the US under trump would likely turn on them despite a war ruining both countries. India no more wants china controlling the waters to their east than the countries immediately around those waters do, and would likely cause issues, which china also doesn’t want. As we’ve seen in the modern times with ukraine and some of the middle east conflicts and the india/pakistan border, nuclear powers tiptoe around anything that resembles direct conflict. The recent dogfight over the border was a pretty good idea of how reserved even ‘open’ conflict is.
So putin is likely not going to do anything more than a symbolic grunt at his western border, and china will just slowly weather down taiwan if the u.s. is withdrawing its influence. The idea of reunification isn’t THAT taboo in taiwan, and the candidates for it gather a decent chunk of votes. If the u.s. starts acting like a bitch around the world (oh, gee, just look at what’s happening right now), the sentiment towards it and china could easily see a rapid shift.
I agree with you, but my tinfoil hat is telling me to dig a shelter, preserve food and start making ammo. You know, for game hunting.
If they’re going to withdraw then why are they strong arming all the other nations to spending 5% GDP on defense? If they’re not in NATO, who gives a fuck what they want?
It was a talking point that Trump had in his first term. He tends not to let go of bad ideas once they get into his head.
At the time, people didn’t take it seriously. With the Ukraine War, Europe feels like it has to now. But it’s going to be domestic production, not paying US MIC companies like Trump was thinking.
The 5% is probably too much, but its realistically 3.5% the othet 1.5% can be spend on infrastructure (like make bridges strong enough so tanks can drive over them), on cyber defense and other things that are not weapons.
Also it’s about deterrence, when we spend enough Russia can’t attack unless they match the spending, this is part why the Soviet Union collapsed.
Probably because they want those 5% GDP spent for contracts with the 'murican military industrial complex.
So, they wished the increased spending to the monkey paw and got exactly what they were wishing for: countries are cancelling orders of complex US equipment all over the world, and Europe is developing a military industry to compete with them.
that is the less undesirable outcome, but still it is depressing how primitive and fucking dumb humans are to still be bashing each others skulls in in the year 2025.
I don’t think the US military complex consider that “less undesirable” than basically any other possible outcome.
… well, it may be better in their minds than an asteroid destroying Earth before they can cash-out. Maybe. I’m not sure about this one…
I don’t think the US military complex consider that “less undesirable” than basically any other possible outcome.
Either I disagree about the preferences of those murder-weapons-vendors, or you misunderstood my intentional double-negative, whose purpose it was to emphasize that it is absolutely not desirable that budgets have to be increased for mass-murder weapons.
I am saying the military industrial complex over in the divided states of fuck all and everyone, would absolutely prefer if people bought from them, less so as a cash-out but preferably as a permanent source of income. A privatized murder-weapons industry in the billions is the best way of ensuring we will never get lasting peace on this planet.
But that’s definitely (hopefully?) not going to happen if they pull out of NATO.
Never underestimate the corruption and stupidity of European politicians. “Divide and conquer” works like a charm on most of our corrupt assholes. See the stupid opportunist fuck that the Germans elected chancellor. His (our :'( ) government is pushing for the use of the Palantir(!) software from fucking uber-Nazi-piece-of-shit Thiel in German administrations.
They’re demanding it of Australia (not NATO, but we do have ANZUS) too.
If the US leaves NATO, Europe would lose a lot of support.
If the US stays in NATO, they would refuse to support them anyway and could use their veto power to stop any potential action.
If they’re not going to have the support of the US military either way, and the US staying in NATO could prevent the organization from taking any action at all, it may be in the best interest of Europe for the US to leave NATO so they can’t cripple it from within.
NATO is a defensive alliance so the only thing a US veto would do is prevent Ukraine from joining NATO. But that wouldn’t happen until the war is over, and it doesn’t look like that’s going to happen until Russia’s economy collapses. At that point Russia won’t be a threat for awhile so kick the US out, add Ukraine as a member since Ukraine would be a stronger ally than the US anyway.
Look how stupid your country is, to hand the death of NATO to Putin because you’re on his side.
Thanks for the war and death and heat, Americans.
Fuck you.
We’re pretty pissed off at ourselves right now too. I’m sorry things got this far and wish I could offer more than fear and frustration…
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I keep seeing this sentiment and I don’t understand it. Are you speaking purely out of anger and ignorance? The recent No Kings protest was either the third or first largest protest in the history of the U.S.A. and some communities have literally been running ICE gestapo out of their towns.
The Christian Conservative minority have gridlocked the American government, silently stacked the judicial system in their favor, and partnered with the American oligarchy to bankroll fascists and create the most pervasive, effective, and enduring propaganda machines ever seen (that’s already worked its way into Australia and had been finding footholds in Europe).
The idea than Americans aren’t doing anything about this or that there could ever possibly be a single unified movement that magically fixes “the issue” is incoherently reductive and impractical. If I see a comrade struggling for air I don’t yell at them to just breathe. I help them remove the pig standing on their neck. What are YOU doing to lend a hand or show lost comrades that there’s still hope?
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It definitely isn’t.
It really sounds like you cowards are holding REALLY tightly to the same talking points- so fucking desperate not to face your inadequacy and complete lack of spine. It’s gross, honestly.
Guess what, you’re not “one of the good ones.”
Your comment makes no sense and helps no one.
They just had the largest protest in their history, have a handful of cities under military intervention to stop the protests, and are close to elect somebody that promises to fight against the federal government as mayor of their largest city.
What exactly do you expect them to do?
Thanks for the war and death and heat, Americans.
Casting the first stone from paradise, eh?
Americans have been burning paradise. Sit yout ass down and be quiet.
For the other nations in nato it would be for the best (imo obviously). Republican usa is not a reliable ally and the other nato nations have not all come to terms with that new reality yet. If the usa quits nato, then it instantly removes all doubt and the remaining nations of NATO can immediately start work on improving the alliance, instead of being stuck in limbo for a few more years while they’re hoping that the usa will somehow magically unfuck itself.
We already know all of that and work is already being done to improve the alliance among non-US NATO members. The US is already considered non-reliable and the only benefit of the US being a member is that it puts some doubt in the minds of adversaries long enough to build up the militaries of the non-US members.
