Is it legal in the US to shoot people who are trying to kidnap you?
I mean, anyone can go around claiming to be law enforcement or ICE or whatever, but with no badge or ID, how are people supposed to know that this isn’t a gang trying to trafic them?
In vast majority of states there is a stand-your-ground law in place, which means you’re explicitly allowed to use deadly force if you reasonably believe that you’re defending yourself from a violent crime, and in minority there is a duty to retreat while outside of your home or workplace, which means that you still are allowed to use deadly force, but you have to try to retreat first, and only use force if you are reasonably sure that you can’t run away.
Kidnapping by a group of people in plain clothes in an unmarked van is explicitly stated as an example of a case where use of deadly force is permitted by law.I think that would count as self defence.
but would the court?
According to law, it’s a matter of law in most of the states, and matter of jury instructions in a limited number of states. In other words, it is explicitly a law.
you’re almost there
I’m pretty sure self defence doesn’t apply against law enforcement, even if you don’t know they are law enforcement.
There have been cases where firing upon law enforcement who failed to adequately identify as such has counted as self defence
It may not, but imo you do what you have to do to protect yourself against aggravated kidnapping, and then hope you/your lawyer can articulate how/why you did what you did later in court.
Oh, totally, no dispute there.
As Legaleagle put it in their most recent video: At that point it becomes logical to resist arrest, to run or to fight.
I would say the US has an executive with aspirations to implement aspects of a fascist state. As long as millions of people are protesting in the streets, the courts are ruling against the executive on points of law and people are standing their ground it is still a long road for the executive to get where they want to go. If the country really was full fascist you would be totally fucked and being shipped with your family to a concentration camp for disloyalty to great leader right now.
Unlike some other countries where law enforcement and prisons might be state run on principle, the US has a history of privatizing such functions. They had the union busting Pinkerton thugs, for profit prisons and bounty hunters. A society that didn’t cry out when the Pinkertons were busting the heads of working people or kids were being railroaded into for profit prison slavery shouldn’t be surprised when thugs are clearing the streets of immigrants. That is just America sadly. That nastiness has always been there.
It’s called “disappearing someone” and it was something that was supposedly done by dictators and tyrants.
Like today’s USA.
For Texas at least, under penal code 9.31(a)(1-3) it’s presumed to be reasonable self defense to use force (it specifically does not mention what kind of force, but it is assumed that deadly force is included, I think) against a person who “was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.”
Are people in denial? It just seems like a commonly understood thing. I’ve talked to straight CNN consuming boomers and even they see it for what it is.
For the record I’m in Canada so maybe it’s just hard to see from the inside.
If they aren’t in the streets they are in denial
Cracks me the fuck up the rest of the world thinks this now.
This has been the case since Bush passed Citizens United and it was even happening before that. RIP Rosenbergs.
I thought Citizens United was an Obama thing. Are you sure you don’t mean the Patriot Act?
It happened during the Obama administration but it was in response to shit under Bush from people being critical of him/his admin. Obama did not support Citizens United.
I thought it was a Supreme Court thing? What did Obama do?
Not every bad law is fascism.
I would say only in a vacuum.
There’s gotta be
criminalsnon-ICE who exploit this. Like it must be so easy now for ransomers to kidnap somebody.Did you not see the security company guy who dressed as a cop and murdered a state senator, her husband, and shot another state senator?
But see, it was the other team, so it’s okay.
Thanks. Since moving from Reddit to Lemmy, I’ve become way more aware of what I’m clicking on. I’m pretty sure the amp project links are just for mobile phones n stuff, but it’s good to be aware
Thanks. Google was serving me nothing but slop
as if by design…
If you see Ice agents covering their faces, call 911 and report a masked man with a gun.
Please forgive my ignorance but isn’t the police force in USA known for its violence and profiling? Wouldn’t they be “in” on it, too?
ICE isn’t alerting local law enforcement of what’s happening. They get a call about a masked gunman and they’ll show up.
Can the police do anything when they show up? Aren’t ICE federal agents and above the local police’s jurisdiction?
Shoot first, ask questions later
Finally, some thing they are good for!
When local police show up, they’ll make the ICE agents identify themselves.
From what I’ve seen (admittedly completely online anecdotes), the ICE agents flee before the local pd show up because theyre cowards
Doubt. Lotta local pd at some of these raids.
Lie and say they looked black so police show up faster and use their guns before asking to identify.
Police are more likely to show up and open fire on the civilians
Cops are there in minutes when seconds count.
You must live in a nice neighborhood. In my experience when seconds count cops show up in hours.
And get hauled away anyway.
You don’t have to be the one being targeted to act against them. If I see gestapo going after someone, I’ll make the call even though I don’t fit the profile of who they’re targeting today.
I mean America is a fascist regime. And you know who support fascism? Fascists. So I guess most fascists are kinda OK with what’s happening.
That’s not denial, that’s full endorsement.
Must be nice living in such a black and white world.
I wonder what chain of thought led you to this conclusion, which is very strange to me. But at the same time, I’m not willing to start some kind of futile quarell over this so… well, have it your way and have a good day.
This argument will just give the fascist leverage to call you a fascist. They are pros at projection and sadly you dont stand a chance.
The issue is fascists are going to lie regardless. There is nothing we can say, no way we can act that will prevent that. It is pointless to try.
Not asking that we try to confront the fascist populous. Asking we confront the fascist government.
I fail to see how this responds to my comment.
The op was saying americans are fascist so it makes sense the government is fascist. To claim the general populace is fascist will only get you in a shouting match of who the most fascist is. A distraction from what really matters, addressing the fascist regime occupying the white house.
Removed by mod
Apparently not because they keep doing it and are effective in their propaganda when they have no right to be.
Fun fact: you know who gave them that power? Bill Motherfucking Clinton. And he fucking did it for money.
How long will people
The Gestapo could be hauling them away in cuffs and putting them away in camps and some will just go “why is this happening to me? there must be some mistake”
Anyone who is still on the fence is either only tuned into propaganda or is incapable of reasoning.
Or still thinks that the leopard won’t eat their face, because it hasn’t so far.
Yeah, for many the leopard has to actually be eating their face directly at the moment for it to be a problem.
There has to be some serious level of being downtrodden that’s required to like empathy for everyone else in the world that’s not them.
That’s 'Murica in a nutshell
funny how you never hear from the “cold dead hands” guys when tyranny actually happens
that’s what my ex wife called me
“good morning cold dead hands 😘”
that’s what my ex wife called me
Thats strange, she called me “warm lively hands”
You can be certain that a lot of concealed carry leftist will actively respond if something like this happens near/to them.
i hope so, but the people I’m referring to aren’t leftists. they’re the people who oppose any and all regulation and cite being able to defend against tyranny as the ostensible reason.
yet when this shit happens they’re awfully quiet. because they’re full of shit and fucking love tyranny.
I generally agree. I had one neighbor that always voted straight ticket and was a gun nut with a screw loose. Not a fan of tyranny though. I think losing his brother in Vietnam put a fire in his soul.
Lol
Lmao even
Rofls4realz
Generally people in America don’t get organized until there’s a disaster. That’s one of the lessons of the Great Depression/New Deal. Not the most optimal way to maintain democracy. It’s not really “maintenance” if you wait for the thing to break and then fix it.
That’s a pretty classic Marxist understanding of how class conflict actually happens. In response to a crisis a state can either adapt or fall into chaos if it can’t. That’s essentially what happened during the new deal era and the civil war respectively. Although arguably the external threats of WWII allowed the US to adapt rather than fall apart.
Ah, the American method in action!
What may have been the largest organized protests in American history were just a few days back, the president has record-breakingly low approval, even his own party’s talking heads are turning against him. If you’re not going to be satisfied by anything short of armed uprising then at least be brave enough to say as much, but pretending that Americans just don’t see anything wrong and aren’t doing anything is an act of wilful and blatant ignorance.
You know what Hitler did when he had low approval? He made disapproving illegal.
Just wait for it.
I wouldn’t rest on your laurels just yet. You’ll know when you’ve begun to turn the tide because the beast will lash out. The restraint we are seeing right now just means they’ve got a whole lot more in the tank.
You dont have to look further than last October to see this same type of hubris play out. Kamala had momentum and there was 100% a point where if the vote happend then she would have won. For what ever reason they backed off on the “weird” stuff and started rolling out the neocons. The DNC is going to fuck you and you wont even see it coming.
You’re only proving that you don’t actually have any idea what’s going on here, acting like we’re resting on our laurels because there was a big protest. Nobody here is thinking “Yeah we made ourselves heard, job’s done!” Nobody here says the fight is won, but you’re out here acting like nothing is being done at all.
No. Im pushing like I’ve been pushing for the las 8 years. Grow up.
Pretty much every other sign at the protests on Saturday openly called the situation fascism. “No fascist USA” was a common chant across America. LA erupted in civil unrest when fascists rolled up and starting trucking people out by the dozen, and people everywhere roared in protest.
Many of us have noticed. Many of us are working on it. We need to organize. We need to band together. We need to convince people that it’s not hopeless, that it’s not just more of the same and that it’s not inevitable.
Together we can change things. We need to do everything we can to grind the wheels of fascism to a halt. Feel free to help!
THIS. Everyone who’s feeling hopeless needs to get out of the Lemmy echo chamber and find people building the resistance in the real world. It’s actually not hard to do. Go to a protest and talk to people. Look online for a local resistance organization and show up at a meeting. Spend your money at companies that don’t support fascists. Whatever you do, just don’t give up because that’s exactly what the fascists want.
I think the line between a liberal democracy and fascism is much blurrier than most people think. I suspect the transition from one to the other, going in either direction, is entirely dependent on how much internal forces threaten the ruling capitalist class.
Right now, I think the US is on the decline but hasn’t yet experienced a crisis which really threatens the power of the capitalist class. Fascists seeking power therefore need to manufacture crises in order to accumulate power. That’s where I think the US is at right now.
However, I’m not sure how well it will really work. Democratic state leaders are effectively demonstrating that the existing law enforcement structures are perfectly capable of violently cracking down on dissent. So if you’re a wealthy capitalist, why would you push your bought and paid for judges and politicians to make Trump president for life? It seems like a needlessly risky move in my opinion.
That said, we can only say that the rich will operate rationally to protect their own interests on average. Individually, they can be wildly erratic like Elon Musk has proven to be. As such, the more wealth is concentrated into fewer and fewer hands, the less predictable the outcomes are.
True, fascism is the ultimate weapon that capitalists use in reaction to labor movements and class consciousness gaining strength. In fact, I’d argue that given modern advances in communication technology, which allow people to communicate and organize easier than ever, a fascist swing was almost inevitable.
It’s a shame that western world leaders don’t like dialectic materialism. We might have identified the problem before it seized power.
