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I mean this clearly shows how rectangular cars were back then, which is not great for collisions. They should at least stay round.
Also i read a discussion recently about how EVs are heavier due to their battery (and that’s supposedly bad for pedestrians when they get into a crash with the car), and i immediately had to think of how enormously overweight SUV vehicles are today, and people don’t complain enough about how enormously overweight SUVs are. In fact some people praise it and say that the heavy mass is good for the car-driver of the SUV because when they get into a crash, they’ll take less damage (while everyone around them takes more, btw).
Really shows how arguments are twisted and turned around when it’s the oil lobby that stands to profit from it.
In the case of SUVs, it’s not primarily the oil lobby, it’s car manufacturers. Put simply, they get to charge way more than the extra materials costs, for a “premium” vehicle. They’re making bank out of this shit.
Yeah, “cost plus” pricing strategy (link) means that you make a fixed percentage of profit. When you sell a vehicle for $200, you make $20 in profit (at a 10% markup rate); But if you sell a $400 vehicle, you can make $40 in profit. It’s crazy to me that they’re not just selling the same $200 vehicle for $220 to make $40 profit ($180 manufacturing cost), but that’s apparently the world we live in: People accept that companies can make more profit on higher-cost items.
It’s worse than that actually.
It’s not the same markup rate for a higher priced product. It’s a higher markup rate. Crossovers in particular aren’t much bigger than sedans and wagons. It’s only actual SUVs with off-road equipment (lockable diffs, 2 speed transfer case, etc) that cost significantly more to manufacture than regular cars.
My contribution - 1990 Volkswagen Vanagon. It is pretty large, but hilariously it’s still smaller than a Chevy Tahoe lol.
And it probably fits more stuff!
Hi, it’s me your long lost cousin!
I hate the huge SUVs you see all over the roads, I have a 2021 Seat Leon FR PHEV hatchback, and around here the Kia EV9 is really popular.
While not as large as the stupid Ford F-150s, the EV9 is fucking huge.
The bonnet of an EV9 reaches almost up to my Leon’s roof:
https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/seat-leon-2020-5-door-hatchback-vs-kia-ev9-2023-suv/
It should be illegal to have a car with the headlight at the eye level of a driver of a standard WV Golf type car.
Bonnet height for private vehicles should be tightly regulated, they are a key contributer to lethality in car accidents yet increasing every year. I could imagine some steep increase in taxes (at least at purchase if nothing else) the further you deviate from a defined reasonable height. People do care about money, make lethal asocial choices more expensive.
I recently inherited an older Toyota Sienna and it’s made me realize the current crop of 3 row SUVs and gigantic trucks is mostly sold to people who would absolutely love a minivan but just don’t know it.
- I’ve got more cargo space than any truck I pass on the road made in this century
- I can fit my entire family plus drag along multiple friends and still have space for everyone’s bags
- I can stand and walk through the interior if desired, even climbing to the far back from the front seat
- the sliding doors mean you can get in and out of the vehicle from any parking spot without a door in the way
- it’s got a turn radius so short that I can do a full U-turn without reversing on any road or parking lot
- the high seat+low nose means I can nussle up within inches of a vehicle in front of me and still see the bumper
- the engine is has enough power to be comparable to some small locomotives.
I would never have bought a minivan on account of the gas milage (~20mpg just ain’t great, and filling up the 25 gallon tank every week hurts the pocket book way more than my crossover that I got before I knew snow tires were a thing) but holy crap having this much space for people/stuff is incredible and I thoroughly enjoy playing bus/truck with it for all of my friends and family. For anyone who’s considered a truck/3-row SUV to be a requirement, they need to do themselves a favor and try out a minivan
It’s exactly why I just don’t understand how these trucks are getting so fucking popular in Europe including in Germany! There’s been a culture for many decades of the multifunction vans, Volkswagen multivan but also mercedes Sprinter, that one fiat model etc. They are incredibly versatile yet manageable vehicles. You need a bed to go camping : sure. Need to move a couch: no problem. Need to go somewhere with up to 7 people: gotcha! Park in tight spot in underground garage: mostly no issue… Compare with the stupid RAM etc trucks any of those vans on anything except “coolness” and the vans will always come out on top! They need an extra trailer to move a bicycle for gods sake. RAM and similar are just an enormous waste of space and fuel by comparison. These damn trucks need to be forbidden in EU asap. Minimum bonnet height/angle/visibility would be a good way to get there.
Trouble is, trucks are considered cool. Vans aren’t.
my work have a Hilux, it’s horrible to drive, it’s like being on a boat.
The commercials I see for Ram trucks make me cringe so hard I want to escape my skin. The fact that that marketing strategy must work is absolutely bananas to me.
Have you got a link to the one you’re talking about?
https://youtu.be/RJ1qV0izPw8 like this
…minivans are fantastic purpose-designed suburban utility vehicles; crossovers are small-dick-energy rejection of suburban identity…
Like I said, I got the crossover before I understood what actually gets you safely across unplowed roads and unpaved farm driveways in the winter, but I at least knew just enough that I went for a crossover and not some disgusting oversized SUV or truck like plenty of other folks around me go for.
Now that it’s been totaled (cosmetically) by hail damage it’s simply not fiscally reasonable to replace it until it’s entirely worn out so that’s just a past decision that I’m going to have to live with for the next decade or so
…oh i’m not giving you a hard time, especially these days when most manufacturers have discontinued cars entirely to offer only crossovers or trucks; i’m just pointing out how stupidly the market evolved over the past three decades, largely in reaction to the success of the minivan…
…what’s particularly ironic is that the minivan’s whirlwind success was driven by a similar backlash against station wagons, and now modern crossovers have essentially evolved into overwrought bloated wagons…
Oh I see what you’re saying! Does make me wonder how long until it cycles around again (assuming vehicle opinions do cycle around over time like fashion/design language preferences tend to)
WV
Ah, the Wolksvagen.
I drive a 2001 Toyota MR2. My 7 yo step daughter is taller than the entire car. When I’m next to most vehicles, the top of my car is below their windows.
Even drive thrus I’m usually lower than the window.
I love my little car, it’s more capable than people think. I can easily get all the groceries I need, I’ve picked people up from the airport with their luggage in it. (I have a luggage rack on the back.) But I am concerned about people seeing me and am wary of it.
Not with those crash safety test results. I’ll take a modern sedan if I’m going to have a car
Imagine if speed limits were variable based on a car’s weight and lethality. Only small cars are allowed to go fast.
It’d be a difficult calculation to make. Bigger cars usually have better brakes and wider tires and in sporty trim levels of premium cars those can even help them stop faster than smaller cars.
Audi RS4 with it’s sporty brakes, stops 1800 KG down from 140 km/h to 0 in 65 meters. Corolla 1.8 hybrid will do 130 to 0 in 66. Weighs about 1400 KG. Yes I cherrypicked it, but that’s the point.
The extra weight actually helps grip so that cancels it out somewhat.
And yes, you’ll be hurt more if you’re hit by a bigger car at the same speed - but speed matters more (energy equals mass times velocity squared after all) and if the bigger car is able to stop faster, that means it’s more survivable, assuming the driver or some driver aid system does indeed try and slow down the car - if not, then the heavier car is for sure more dangerous.
Bigger cars do WAY more damage. To pedestrians, the impact is higher on the body and far more lethal; and to other vehicles, well that’s obvious.
I think you’re right though, with simplified physics the additional traction does cancel out the additional momentum.
But wider tyres and expensive brakes actually don’t make a difference. More contact with the ground just reduces the traction per area, total traction hasn’t changed (assuming a smooth road). As for brakes, as long as they’re strong enough to lock the wheel, that’s enough. ABS helps a little, but expensive designs are only useful if you’re in a race.
Yet, performance cars with wider tires and bigger brakes (that don’t overheat and fade quickly) stop quicker than economy cars.
If they do that’s probably softer tyres and aerodynamics. Maybe suspension and weight distribution. Many factors anyway.
Montana does this actually. Cars can do 60 for example, semis must go 50. Granted its not divided up for bro trucks and huge SUVs like it should be. Every state should. And speed limits slow down at night!
The proper big brodozers (F350 at least, not sure about 250) are legally limited to 90 km/h in my country because if total weight (that includes the legally allowed cargo + passenger capacity, but not towing capacity) is over 3500 KG, it’s considered a heavy truck and same regulations apply as for a big ass lorry lol
Thats good at least. They should be illegal for normal joes IMO. Or have to be used for work once a week.
I do have a truck myself. Only used for work. 8 ft bed. No ac or radio. A real work truck, not some fluffy bullshit Cadillac mom truck. And, my “truck” is still smaller than any of those pavement queens.
Bring back wagons!!!
station wagon superiority
i need an electric station wagon goshdarnit!!
Convertibles and coupes are also a dying breed.
I really want a large electric station vagon, or even better an electric camper with decent range.
Hopefully its just a few years away.
VW ID7 was advertised as the new Passat stationwagen.
It ended up just being a standard sedan with more tacky LEDs on the outside starting at like € 70k
I love mt Subaru Levorg (aside from its fuel consumption), I wish they made a new version with an electric drivetrain, instead they made the fuckin Solterra
I wish we got those in the US. I would trade my Outback for one in a heartbeat.
A 2000 outback as an ev would be amazing. I love the old Outbacks.
The Outback is cool too
I do love mine with the H6
this is the only new car I would consider buying. Of course, if they did offer it in my market, it would be full of touch screens and spyware, so I still wouldn’t buy it
tbh this is why i am still following that “Slate” EV Truck
A truly minimalist vehicle that not only doesn’t have a touch screen, it also doesn’t have a stereo system, a cellular data uplink, gps navigation, or even power windows (you can technically get power windows if you want to opt for them but the others are Bring Your Own Tech)
of course, i’m not putting any money down until the day i can actually get in and drive one off the lot MYSELF… been too burned by vaporware products -_-
this thing though, at the very least, feels like it might still be LIKELY because it’s a minimum viable product single purpose tool:
It is a MACHINE
that turns ELECTRICITY
into GOIN’ SOMEWHERE
And That’s It.
NO MORE, NO LESS!I’ve been tempted by a FordRanger/MazdaB2000 over the years. still am
I have a wagon. It’s rusted to shit. I should have taken better care of it, but I didn’t realize how difficult it would be to replace when I bought it nearly 10 years ago. I just bought a slightly smaller wagon, with a little less towing and hauling capacity (both power and space and capability). a little pickup would be a good way for me to still be able to tow some slightly heavier loads safely, and have some of the “this is a just work vehicle” capability. but until then, we’ll see how the smaller wagon handles the utility trailer. mostly just worried about braking, I’ll have to lighten the max load a bit. this new car is a 2012 and basically rust free on the frame. I’m hoping to make it last until cars are inoffensive again. or at least far less offensive
Here in Australia there’s the new Deepal E07 which is a weird and interesting concept. Looks like a sedan / truck / station wagon all in one.
Yes! Me too. I think the only option at the moment is the MG5 here in Europe.
There’s also the Opel/Vauxhall Astra electric.
In the interim, the Toyota Corolla Touring Sports Hybrid is an excellent alternative. Versatile, spacious, fuel efficient, reliable, and dare I say quite attractive as well. The Toyota Prius V / α also deserves a shout out
Taycan Cross Turismo or Sport Turismo is incredible. It had better be for its sticker price tho. But they’re probably great on the used market.
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In a surprising reversal, the meme got it right (SUVs, 90s) and the title did not (SUV’s).
Even when dealing with acronyms and numbers, " 's " indicates possession.
I don’t see SUV’s much, but I frequently see 90’s (or other decades).
Yes!
Finally a nuanced take in this community.
Cars wouldn’t be so bad if they weren’t so oversized
“Fuck cars”, like “ACAB”, is often a quick tagline to a problem people understand is more nuanced. I don’t think so many people here would literally like all cars in existence to be crushed in a heap.
I left reddit because I was apparently too anti car for /r/fuckcars. If this community becomes like the reddit diluted sub where people were making car apology and justifying their use, I’m going to be very disappointed.
I would really love that all cars in existence be crushed into a heap. It’s a fantasy and I know it won’t happen. I can compromise. But if most could be crushed in a heap, that would be very great too.
people were making car apology and justifying
Lmfaooo, car apologists… can’t stop picturing them as sentient things now, like Lightning McQueen at a press conference commenting on his recent scandal
I’d like that. Take however much chaos or inefficiency you think that day would cause, now imagine centuries of climate change.
Cars wouldn’t be so bad if they weren’t so oversized
And if there weren’t so many of them.
And if they didn’t pollute so much
Edit: oh and the traffic accidents of course! But aside from their size, the required infrastructure, their number, the pollution, and the traffic accidents, cars are totally fine!
Edit 2: And the noise! But other than those things…
And noise
Speaking as an American: And if there were realistic options to driving.
And if Americans could drive. Majority limply hold the steering wheel with one hand, more concerned with looking cool than being in control of their 5 ton truck of entitlement.
We suffer from decades of society built up around the assumption that Cars Are The Way, and infrastructure/systems built around supporting cars. Zoning laws that separate business from homes, funding for supporting car infrastructure but not public transit, etc.
What we have, we have because people profited from ensuring cars were the solution most people moved to, then spending that money lobbying for numerous initiatives to ensure life was extremely inconvenient if you didn’t have a car.
The solution is neither “accusing anti-car people of having so sense of what’s going on”, nor “accusing car people of blindly feeding into a bad system”. It’s gonna take holding industries and lobbyists to account, and sustained action by many concerned citizens across multiple venues.
Smaller cars will continue to kill a few billion animals yearly. They will also continue to kill around a million of humans every year, or about one human every 30 seconds.
The area covered by parking lots is mostly impervious and contributes to flooding as well as heat islands. Cars and parking lots make cities hotter and are worsening climate change. They also contribute to noise pollution. And no, electric cars are not better for noise because at highway speed they are as noisy as fossil fuel cars, and at low speed, their pedestrian warning system is also louder than fossil fuel cars.
I can be nuanced and understand that some people will always need a car, but most people in the world live in a town, a suburb, or a city, and the existence of the vast majority of those cars cannot be justified, whatever their size. Of course smaller cars are desirable. Electric cars are desirable A mix of electric and smaller would be better than status quo. But fewer cars is even more desirable.
their pedestrian warning system is also louder than fossil fuel cars.
Hasn’t been my experience, not that I disagree with your overall argument. Might differ by country and regulations etc.
It does vary depending on the manufacturer. Some are pretty quiet. I can’t hear any Tesla “honking at low volume” when they pass by, but they probably just don’t comply with new regulations. I find Hyundai to be the worst.
I live in a tower at the intersection of a busy street with traffic lights and I can hear the Hyundai EVs while sitting in my couch when the windows are open. In fact, they’re open right now and I can clearly hear a Chevrolet EV decelerating before coming to a stop at the traffic light while I’m typing this. Toyota EVs are also pretty loud. Granted I can also hear loud and modified fossil fuel engines but most of them usually blend into a white noise.
When walking around the smaller streets of my neighbourhood, cars are going pretty slow and the noises of Hyundai, Chevrolet and Toyota EVs definitely stand out. It’s weird because I’m a pedestrian. I don’t have a car. I hate them. And I want them to be secure for pedestrians. But some of those warning systems are so loud and annoying that I wish they would just be quiet.
The ugliest urban environments were designed around older cars, long before SUVs were the norm. Like you said, it’s not just the car, but also the infrastructure it requires.
I’d honestly argue the infrastructure is the bigger issue because of all the other shit it influences as well. The poor infrastructure is a massive factor in both pedestrian and occupant safety, it makes cities spread out and inefficient, which causes all the buildings to also be leff effecient (more walls exposed rather than shared with other buildings etc).
The scale and lack of established alternatives makes it very difficult for even a small city to make minor changes without extreme push back (speed cameras and bike lanes were made illegal on province wide scale in my area, making it hard for a city to make improvements to cycling and speeding).
This hasn’t even touched on the environmental factors, road noise, or maintaince budgets. The infrastructure is the biggest part of the problem, it has gone on long enough to let the SUV become so wide spread.
While I agree with your points, those of us in non metropolises need cars. Could we change to smaller cars and motorcycles and outlaw large trucks except for work? Yes.
I literally couldn’t live without my cars. Because I have a house out of town. And towns here are an hour apart
I suspect you and I are saying “fuck cars” for very different reasons
Does it involve dragons?
Cars also have become bigger because of safety standards and regulations. Like even small cars like a Volkswagen Polo have become larger than their 80’s/90’s counterparts while the interior space didn’t increase that much.
Mazda MX-5/Miata current generation is about the same size (i think 5cm or so longer) as the original with modern safety features, it’s possible to keep the footprint small
That doesn’t explain ever expanding legroom and cabin space though. Why is every new generation of car an inch larger in each direction? The human body isn’t on average getting taller at anywhere near the scale that cars are (though maybe we are getting a bit wider…)
No. Fuck cars.
You’ll never convince me that SUVs don’t exist solely to sell what is effectively a minivan to deeply insecure men.
Deeply insecure men buy pickup trucks with hoods I can barely see over. SUVs and their perception of “safety”, storage space, and ride height are why women are the primary purchasers.
AFAIK, they only sell full-size minivans in the US. I don’t think I’ve seen any smaller ones since the Mazda 5 was discontinued.
The availability of crossovers in every size category means you can get the size you want.
SUVs exist because they cost roughly $1,000 more to make but consumers are willing to pay $3-4,000 for an SUV than a car. That’s it. As always. The answer is our Lord, and savior - Money.
Not the 90s, return to most people not owning a car
Make cars a choice again. Not a necessity!
And watch car ownership rates plummet. Turns out most people would gladly save their car money for something else if they could.
Hell yeah, I want to have a horse and a wagon
Proper public transportation and maybe a bicycle would mostly do it
I agree completely, I forgot to add a “/j” to the my other comment XD
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Streetcars and tram lines everywhere!
Imagine a wagon with suspensions, it would be so sick (and i wouldn’t get
carwagon sick!)
As a full time walker and bicyclist, what I have learned is that virtually no one is up to the responsibilities of operating a car or truck. Humans do not deserve to drive, and the sheer volume of traffic accident deaths every year is a reminder of that (let alone the far greater volume of traffic related animal deaths).
Smart fortwo is all most need. 4door is for afyer kids
My humble contribution
I mean, it might be small but it got worse gas mileage, was heavier and would kill you in a fender Bender.
Turning a corner was like opening a submarine hatch. The brakes locked up causing more accidents and deaths. The suspension allowed the cars to roll easier. And if you were hit by one of them, you had a much higher chance of severe injury or death due to the lack of crumple zone.
People really need to stop looking for solutions to modern problems by looking to the past at the things that were the reason we ended up with the modern problems.
you’re thinking 60s maybe, 90s cars had servos, crumple zones, even abs and tcs. maybe not the bottom tier ones, but it was def available
i was skimming the wiki page for crumple zone and they had simulations for the '86 vw polo
you’re prolly right on the fuel efficiency thoughWrong. 2005 was peak for cars.
Are you trying to say:
I do like my crumple zones, but would like modern cars to downsize like they did in the malaise era.
