The worst part is: yes! Tons of studies come to that conclusion. Be it reading comprehension, lead poisoning, or the active dismantling of the US education system for the last eight decades, it’s all part of the same picture. But what can you do about it if the group of preteens is self governing and won’t see the problem?
I think 12 may be too high. Most kids I’ve knew who acted like that were like 6.
This concept could be an entire Lemmy community.
Although Hanlon’s razor says “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity”, I’d argue never misjudge malicious intent for stupidity. The first makes you just look a bit dumb, the second makes you a victim.
i’m introducing Marx’ Flaming Laser Sickle, which says that i don’t give a fuck about the underlying cause if the effect is fascism.
After a certain tipping point, stupidity en masse becomes indistinguishable from malice. The result is more important than the intent.
Reddit’s razor? Harambe’s razor?
I think there does come a point where stupidity and malice are basically the same thing.
When I was 12 I wanted to send the worst criminals to live in prisons in Somalia so that Somolies could have jobs and we would never have to see criminals…
And now there is a literal version of that idea from a 12 year old
I think you’re underestimating 12-year olds here.
The group I play D&D with has three 12-year olds in it and I would put any of those kids in charge of this country over any of the current administration and those kids are morons.
i mean, i would put the liz truss cabbage in charge of the american government at this point
Yeah I was thinking this sound alike my 4 year old
I mean i just want to note for a second that the aging retardant properties of humanity are one of the great miracles that puts us above other species.
Most other mammal species, including dogs, cats, camels, zebras, horses, cattle, sheep, whatever farm animal/pet you can think of typically lives no longer than 20 years, while for humans it’s routinely 80 years, about 4x as long.
That, it turns out, is one of humanity’s great strengths. We age significantly slower, and that includes a significantly longer childhood. Most feral animals grow up and reach puberty within 1-3 years, while for humans it takes at least 12 years (even longer if you wait to be socially accepted as an “adult”). This gives us more time to play, figure things out, learn, and develop. It is for this reason that we’re able to pull off more amazing things than other species, because our long lifes warrant that getting a long, proper education is worth it. Because if we only lived for 20 years, it would hardly be worth it to study till you’re 25 years old.
So, aging slower, and staying childish for longer, is actually one of humanity’s great strengths. It is unfortunate, i believe, that we’re trying to remove that human specialty in these days and trying to make people grow up faster.
that puts us above other species.
What, why? Axolotls can regrow limbs and a jellyfish (Turritopsis dohrnii) is biologically immortal. Try that as a mere human.
And btw, please stop with that “we are above animals” thinking. That’s what makes us think the world is ours alone and leads to destruction and shrinking bio diversity. And we are animals too anyway.
With that reasoning, turtles, parrots, should be put above humans?
Look, that all sounds very nice for civilized people. But childhood itself is a creation of civilization. Childhood didn’t exist until we had the leisure to allow it. And now civilization has progressed to the point where children don’t really ever have to grow up or assume care of themselves and others. Ya see em sleeping in tents on the corner. Still 12. No bills, no cares. Can you spare a dollar?
childhood is something all complex animals have, playing is how we learn to do things needed to survive.
Sociologists love making that claim, but it’s not true.
A long childhood followed by extremely experimental puberty is indeed a biological feature of our species.
There have been societies that suppressed childhood due to labor needs, but that came after many more had thrived respecting it.
Modern childhood is indeed new… Compared to western European tradition, not to our species as a whole.
Well thanks, but I didn’t finish my doctorate. I’m not really a sociologist. It’s just a hobby.
The average American is as literate as a 5th to 6th grader.
https://www.thenationalliteracyinstitute.com/2024-2025-literacy-statistics
5th to 6th graders are 10 to 12 years old, normally.
So uh… yep, mhm, the average American is about as stupid as a 12 year old, that’s a bit on the optimistic side though.
Dude’s theory isn’t really wrong, Americans are dumb and immature as fuck, and yes the statistics exist to back that up.
Yet 54% of U.S. adults read below the equivalent of a sixth-grade level
So US was a 3rd-world country all along?
3rd world country with a knock off gucci belt.
Middle eastern terrorism?
Nah, we got ya’ll qaeda right here at home, no need to travel, proud boys all joined ICE, gonna be 4th of July every damn day for the forseeable future.
Honestly it terrifies me when I think about this.
I’m too stupid to be smarter than this many people.
Sadly, nope, if you can read at a high school level, there’s roughly a 75% chance you are smarter than any rando you meet.
For the last 5 or 10 years, more and more kids graduate highschool with middleschool or worse reading / writing abilities.
People even make tiktoks about going off to college and admitting they literally cannot understand the words in their assigned texts, start going through some kind of literacy crash course…
Some people even make videos like that explaining that even after a Bachelor’s or Associates degree, nope, still can barely read.
I am starting to notice this in the slop youtube throws at me that I am sometimes dumb enough to click on.
Somebody reading some article to give commentary on it, and you can just tell they are reading one word at a time, misunderstanding what 15% of them mean, have to actually stop on 5% of the words because those ones they’ve never read before, and then they start complaining that the author must have just been using a thesaurus… because a few of the vocab words in the article are 8th grade or above.
… I picked up reading quickly, so quickly that when I was in 2nd grade, I was assigned to go out into the hall when I was done with my classwork (I always finished rapidly) and then go help a 4th or 5th grader who was behind in reading skills, go sit with them and have them or me read aloud, help them with words they didn’t know, etc.
Everyday, even on the net, I encounter more people who… are beyond graduating high school age, who barely read better than 5th graders with dyslexia.
some kind of literacy crash course…
I love how today actual literacy isn’t even a thing. No one talks about teaching readimg and writing (in the EU, at least). It’s all about financial literacy, digital literacy, social media literacy, hell, even (and bear with me here) AI literacy. Yes, really. There’s probably 800 of these fake literacies floating around.
Whoever thought of this is an idiot. The word literacy means one thing: the ability to read and write (and perhaps understand what you read/wrote). Nothing more, nothing less.
It isn’t just stupid, it’s also malicious. Kids all over the globe are suffering from poor literacy, and instead of fixing the problem you quite literally shift the goalposts.
Why be able to read and consult a dictionary when I can just consult AI or social media to explain it to my borderline-illiterate brain?
DON'T LOOK
Obligatory /s for the final paragraph
When AI services enshittify by raising their price barriers, or when just… infrastructure generally collapses to a serious degree such that many people just literally cannot use them…
Much of Gen Z and A, either reliant on or just totally raised on using AI to do their thinking and work for them…
They will basically go feral, they won’t be able to get their fix, a part of their ‘brain’ will have been ‘removed’, and they will literally be dysfunctional.
And I shouldn’t just single out younger people, though its more prevalent and severe with them, there are certainly many millenials and older who’ve also just given up good chunks of their thinking abilities to AI, which is largely a proprietary service that go undergo a price hike just like Xbox or Netflix.
… I used to think the ending to DX Human Revolution was a tropey cop out, that broke from basically the rest of the game’s narrative and gameplay themes, just a zombie apocalypse at the end of your spy thriller.
Now I realize that was the point, maybe still a bit hamfisted or over the top, but… yep, yep, people become reliant on things they aren’t actually 8n control of for just basic day to day living, and then you actually break that, take it away from them?
Yep, zombie apocalypse is not too far off from what would actually play out.
As an American, this is accurate. I had a conversation with my wife not too long ago about how until I met her, I felt like I was always surrounded by idiots. I don’t mean that in a hyperbolic way. I did not know one person who continued any sort of self education in adulthood. Once they were out of school, that was it. It blew my mind. Life should be a daily striving to learn more. They seriously would not pick up a book, or research any topic outside of headlines.
Curiosity is as important as raw intelligence, and curiosity can be encouraged. Mostly it’s discouraged.
12 year olds are on average a lot smarter than your usual GOP congresscritter. In fact howler monkeys are smarter than your average GOP congresscritter.
Ya, that struck me as real truth. It’s a nice summary, gets quickly to the root of the problem. If you are facing yet another moron, this elucidates what’s going on. People do not aspire to mature beyond 5th grade anymore. Adjust your strategies accordingly.
I honestly would take a fifth grader over most seventh graders most of the time.
Middle school was just a series of brutal fights where I grew up. Physically for the boys and psychology for the girls.
I’m just saying we should be careful what we wish for, though we really do need much better reading programs in schools.
My point was more about what you need to do in response, rather than the exact level of lack of maturity you are facing. I think modeling the moron as if they were a child gives good predictive power and suggests management strategies one may employ.
Sure, I’ve tried it a little bit, but some of them are insufferably immature to the point of them basically responding with: “I know you ware but what am I?”, or plugging their ears and yelling lalalala until you give up or leave.
Reverse psychology come close until they realize the outcome. Some never realize it though.
Well that’s basically the premise of populism. Your policy is doing whatever most of your audience would first think of doing (with no subtlety at all so as not to seem too smart or distant to them) then you just ignore the consequences when they come to bite you in the ass and most people won’t think all those bad things are a result of your own stupid policy, because they believe it was perfectly logical and flawless to begin with.
Can we try populism+? We just get one guy, like a really smart good dude. Like a heavenly super person. We get them to look at all the ideas we have for stuff and tell us if there will be any consequences. If he says it’s good, we do it. If it turns out bad, we kill him and try again.
We would need a name for this person. Something powerful right? Maybe “EMPEROR”
Unfortunately, nowadays populism is used almost exclusively about progressive ideas that are popular as a way to dismiss them because they’re not profitable or some shit.
Yep, even though trump is maybe the most populist president the country has seen
This is very accurate. In my twenties, I worked on myself relentlessly to try to become “grown up”. Eventually I looked around and realized that hardly anyone else was doing that, and people twice my age were still acting like children. Then they elected a man-boy King in their image.
Yep.
Trump is the manifestation of America’s id, or shadow.
He is the pampered, racist, proudly anti-intellectual, rapist, narcissist, serial conman, lawless fucking thug that every idiot in America identifies with, idolizes, worships, assumes is correct, gives every single benefit of every former doubt to.
All because a lot of Americans want to be able to shoot someone on 5th avenue and get away with it, grab em by the pussy and be praised for it.
Ultimately, imo, he is a symptom of problems that those in power during previous years and decades knowingly allowed to fester, or just directly caused…
… but goddamn, the realization or actualization of the collective unconsciousness of angry and obstinate fucking morons is truly awful to behold.
Try drugs.
The drugs just made me even more aware I’m surrounded by crazy children. Maybe I did the wrong drugs.
No those were the right ones, but there are also other ones that make you giggle so it doesn’t suck quite so much. Gotta find the right cocktail for you ;)
I just had a try of elvanse at 50mg slow release yesterday from a friend, and damn it was heaven ((for a while, dose def too high for me, slept an hour during the night and had minor hallucinations (could be the slow release melatonin trying its hardest to shut me down)). Definitely asking the cannot sit still doctor to hit me with a 30mg for trial run.
Sorry kind of off topic, just wanted to share, might be finally getting the right stuff bros! Atomoxetine after 1 year at 130mg making me depressed so that they told me to drop it, but impulse control and short term memory already taking hits after a week off that stuff. Just dont want to feel empty inside anymore, but also would like to function like a responsible adult, so let us see. Man feeling hunger pangs again is kinda bummer, although gets me motivated to cook though.
Anybody just do the natural shrooms anymore. They feel so natural and healthy when you do them
Yes. Although way fewer than I’d expect. Would recommend. Easy and cheap to grow yourself.
This guy drugs.
Never did any of the hard stuff though. If you are wired different though, even ketamine can be a medicine. Too bad most stimulants increase heart risk (among other things) in the long run, of course depends on lifestyle and genetics to a degree. And resistance buildup is a thing to concider as well.
Brother, that’s pretty hard stuff from my perspective.
Come to Oregon. Buy some mushroom gummies. Stare at the lake and the trees for a couple hours.
My sister recently got a cancer diagnosis. I flew her out here for that exact purpose. Did her a world of good.
Vyvanse was perfection for me.
Meh. A bottle of 2.5 valiums is great for me when I visit Mexico, but where I live marijuana and mushrooms are available in government licensed stores. No scrip. Just walk in and buy what you want. We got drugs in Oregon.
Vyvanse almost killed me. Well, i almlst killed me, but vyvanse was the main factor for me feeling like a cracked out robot that couldnt eat, sleep, or talk to people. Only work.
I too passed the self-imposed ritual. It has not made me happy, but it helped me understand why I wasn’t.
For me when I realized I was more grown up than the adults around me, I realized I could relax a bit and not hold myself to such an unsustainable standard. On the other hand I still have lofty goals for myself that I still strive to reach so I’ll pick up a ton of cool experiences along the way and maybe I’ll achieve those pipedreams or maybe I won’t but either way it beats just stagnating and aging in place
damn. well said
Twelve year olds are more advanced, make it 8.
Sounds like something a president on a list would say.
He does keep drawing the line at 12…
Now that I think about it, the situation in the US really does play out like an unconscionable large version of Lord of the Flies.
This is pretty spot on.
Ralph was just trying to help organize and make everyone’s lives better. He was ignored and his life was threatened.
Simon, the insightful one, was trying to get people to see reason to quell their mania. He was murdered.
Piggy, the intelligent and compassionate one, was murdered.
Intelligent, compassionate, and a vessel for the author’s racist worldview.
Don’t mind me. I hate that book, and I hate that it’s taught in every school as if it has anything important to say. We’ve run the Lord of the Flies experiment, both accidentally and very intentionally. Every time, we’ve demonstrated that humans are better than that, and the author’s beliefs about human nature were both very incorrect and very racist.
I still resent being forced to debate my classmates about whether human nature was intrinsically “good” or “evil,” directly after reading that book, even though it was 25 years ago. I was the lone voice on the side of “good,” for lack of a “good and evil are subjective terms, but nonetheless humans are empathetic and this book is horseshit” team. I got dogpiled by 20 some other students for about 45 minutes. Fuck you Ms. Brown, and fuck you William Golding. That book has nothing important to say other than exposing its author’s racist insecurities.
Where in the book does it reveal racism?
When Piggy drops racial slurs in reference to the barbaric behavior of the other boys. Essentially, “We’re white! We’re better than this. Stop acting like [slur].”
Oh dang, I just read this book for the first time and did not catch that. I wonder if it was removed from my version… 🤔
but “good” and “evil” are human constructs meaning they can’t be intrinsic to humans? That teacher was an idiot.
[edit] There is some irony in a teacher encouraging a whole class to gang up on one student regarding a subject related to lord of the flies, though.
Stanford Prison Experiment. Slavery. Lynch mobs. Segregationists. Anti-Feminists. Prison-Industrial Complex. The majority of the country voting for the leader passing out signs that said “MASS DEPORTATIONS”. Maybe there’s some inherent cruelty to the mainland USA. Maybe there’s still too much lead particles in the air. As someone who has never left the mainland, I’ve seen overwhelming evidence to the “non-empathetic” side. Or, perhaps, the majority of people are passive, and cruelty is most capable of spurring people to action.
Stanford prison experiment was manipulative, it was not real science - look it up. The rest of the bad things you talk about are very real and an evidence of the evil side of humanity. That doesn’t mean there’s no good side, though.
Just looked it up. I now see the guards were told to abuse the prisoners. Thank you for informing me. I was unaware.
I prefer to take a more The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street approach to the worst acts of humanity, is not that it comes from a place of evil, but instead a place of fear that a very small handful have used to manipulate those who wouldn’t commit these acts otherwise.
The majority certainly doesn’t choose the active misery of others, and on the scale of the Lord of the Flies setting, humans have consistently shown collaboration and mutual aid. We’ve documented many instances of stranded groups, and even some people that volunteered to be stuck on a raft together for months, and they always choose to work together, despite their differences. Capitalism, fascism, and radical individualism/nationalism are the root of the societal scale evils, because they’re ideologies that propagate in the hands of the few that are willing to benefit at the cost of the many. Humans have not always lived under capitalism.
It’s possible that despite a “good” nature, humans still have a few, but very fatal flaws that cause them to keep electing the worst people. This is a key problem that makes every other characteristic irrevelanr.
I’ve always appreciated Douglas Adam’s take on this:
The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them. To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.
Welp, vote for me! I can’t do worse!
The Stanford Prison Experiment was a sham.
The broader point, though, is that the scenario of The Lord of the Flies has actually happened. We’ve had a small group of kids trapped on an island for an extended period of time and what happened is that they built a peaceful and harmonious society, which included spending time and resources caring for one of their number who broke their leg.
In hindsight it’s kind of surprising that people wouldn’t expect most of the kids to work together to help eachother survive because that’s why humans created cities, towns, villages, etc… -well before education was universal.
The island? Planet earth.
😁
The average person’s attitude is if they aren’t family, they are tools. It’s literaly ingrained in our culture.
“Mind your own business”, “It’s a dog eats dog world” etc.
usa is the whole world
It’s the same people throughout. The post is about the USA.
I think its good that you had to read something you didn’t agree with in school. Look what its done for you.
Get over high school. Soon enough, you won’t remember Ms. Brown’s name.
My problem is not with reading something I disagree with, it’s how it is taught. It was not taught in a way to demonstrate bias, and the author’s views were never even discussed. There was nearly no critical discussion about the validity of the book’s message, it was taken at face value. That’s not teaching.
And its long in the past, my friend. But the more you reveal, the more foundational the experience sounds for you.
Step back. Look again. It helped make you who you are.Well, I’m glad you have a such a broad picture of my psychology from a one off Internet comment about an event that I hadn’t thought about in years. It didn’t make me who I am, the people I chose to spend time with and the excellent teachers that taught me did. Encouraging a lopsided debate about a topic where even discussing the racist bias isn’t allowed is not something that teacher did to help teach or form me.
I think humanity is really slowly being replaced by LLMs.
Presentation and simple, but stupid and wrong ideas, are preferred over actually researching and understanding situations, isolating the underlying issues and working on ways to resolve or at least lessen them.
Just like LLMs, fewer and fewer people seems to care about a deeper understanding, and more about if the stream of words look ‘good’.
True. When I was young I thought why don’t we use the military domestically. Yeah it doesn’t work.
It actually works really well, if your goal is fascism.
