The christofascist on a mission from God to punish China was thoroughly discredited by none other than…
Yeah. That’s who I trust. Maybe check your own sources before disparaging others’.
An example is lying about 8.7% of new IUDs as 80%, to back up claims of “forced sterilization,” from this chart…
Trusting Zenz and data that comes exclusively from Zenz is not a reliable measure.
Instead of accusing others of the equivalent to creationism, why not instead question the actual christofascist you seem to have absolute faith in providing totally real evidence?
Tell me, where have I shown absolute faith in anybody in this thread? You keep talking about how Zenz is a far-right asshole. Do you not realize that Zenz is not the only person researching this?
If you want to cite arguments from the files you linked feel welcome to do so. But I’m not going to read 130 pages of China sucking itself off, nor am I going to read the 40 page UN report (at least right now) to debunk dumbfuck trolls on Lemmy.
Your source “debunking” the Grayzone is RationalWiki, which is a right-wing misinformation justification wiki. Note how none of the arguments presented by the Grayzone against Zenz are tackled, just how the Grayzone reports.
Further, again, Zenz is misrepresenting the data. The only source on him not misrepresenting the data is himself. You further don’t actually tackle how he is misrepresenting the data, you’re just misrepresenting how Xinjiang now has higher access to birth control as “forced sterilization,” a claim that has no backing beyond Zenz’ own words.
Yes, Zenz isn’t the only one researching this! People like the Arab League went to Xinjiang and found no evidence of genocide. Instead, the groups that push the genocide narrative all circle back to Zenz, then reference each other. In this way, the narrative of genocide appears to have more legitimacy, despite all linking back to shoddy claims by an admitted professional propagandist.
I find it telling that you’ll only listen to a christofascist, not the UN, and not the PRC’s official response and evidence. It’s the christofascists that deflect from Palestinian genocide that you trust completely, not hard evidence nor even the most official allegations by the UN. Truth doesn’t seem to matter to you, what matters is that christofascist propagandists are trusted. This is Iraq’s supposed WMD and South Africa’s supposed “White Genocide” all over again.
The reality reversal is fucking crazy. RationalWiki is the right-wing misinformation wiki now?
Note how none of the arguments presented by the Grayzone against Zenz are tackled, just how the Grayzone reports.
A lot of their arguments are debunked here instead.
Yes, Zenz isn’t the only one researching this! People like the Arab League went to Xinjiang and found no evidence of genocide. Instead, the groups that push the genocide narrative all circle back to Zenz, then reference each other. In this way, the narrative of genocide appears to have more legitimacy, despite all linking back to shoddy claims by an admitted professional propagandist.
Have any sources for that?
I find it telling that you’ll only listen to a christofascist, not the UN, and not the PRC’s official response and evidence. It’s the christofascists that deflect from Palestinian genocide that you trust completely, not hard evidence nor even the most official allegations by the UN. Truth doesn’t seem to matter to you, what matters is that christofascist propagandists are trusted. This is Iraq’s supposed WMD and South Africa’s supposed “White Genocide” all over again.
I literally said, if you want to argue with the information that is present in those in total 180 page documents feel free to do so. But I find it telling that you’ll ignore the stuff I say in order to defend daddy Xi at all costs instead. You’re actually a fucking joke.
Correct, RationalWiki is run by right-wing liberals. Read the article linked, the sources are cited on the article and you can check them yourself. For example, Zenz claimed to have interviewed 8 Uyghur people and deduced that millions must be incarcerated:
The source for this is just reading what Zenz and co posted themselves. The Grayzone is just highlighting clear problems with how Zenz gathers data.
Wierd bit of homophobia on your part at the end, but I can’t say I’m surprised by that behavior from you, given your defense of the far-right. You haven’t even looked at the reports, so there’s nothing here to argue yet, all we have found is that you believe far-right christofascist propagandist Adrian Zenz is infallible, and right-liberal RationalWiki is a reliable way to avoid engaging with a group that simply highlights Zenz’ background, methodology, and mistakes.
And how did they deduce that? Maybe with the additional help of official Chinese government documents?:
The source for this is just reading what Zenz and co posted themselves. The Grayzone is just highlighting clear problems with how Zenz gathers data.
And I’m highlighting how they’re wrong.
As for sources on the Arab League visiting Xinjiang and finding no evidence of genocide, here’s Middle East Monitor reporting on it. I already linked this to you before, but this is an additional source just for fun. It’s really easy to find this online.
As for pretty much all major allegations of genocide leading back to Zenz, here’s an example from BBC, which merely reports what Zenz says with little commentary.
“This one article about Uighurs links back to Zenz so all articles link back to Zenz” do you even hear yourself?
Wierd bit of homophobia on your part at the end, but I can’t say I’m surprised by that behavior from you…
Sorry, where was I homophobic?
…but I can’t say I’m surprised by that behavior from you, given your defense of the far-right.
Where did I defend the far-right you fucking moron? Are you fantasizing arguing with an alter ego of mine?
You haven’t even looked at the reports, so there’s nothing here to argue yet…
This is the third time I’m saying this. You’ve not made a single point about anything in the reports YOU shared. What the fuck would me reading them change. Make an argument, cite it, then I’ll check. I’m not going to read 180 pages to debunk literally no argument.
…all we have found is that you believe far-right christofascist propagandist Adrian Zenz is infallible…
Where did I say that dipshit? Show me, where did I say that?
…and right-liberal RationalWiki…
Lol. Lmao even. “Everything I don’t like is liberal” to the nth degree. Well, they’re not though:
…is a reliable way to avoid engaging with a group that simply highlights Zenz’ background, methodology, and mistakes.
I’m directly engaging with the shit you keep spewing. I don’t want to type out paragraphs against worn-out arguments myself, that’s why I just send already existing rebuttals. You don’t want to engage with the rebuttals I send though, so you just keep moving the goalposts. Great job!
You’re showing how Zenz’ estimations are baseless, and RationalWiki is wrong. Zenz invented numbers pulled from thin air from a tiny sample size. You aren’t highlighting how the Grayzone is wrong, you’re proving RationalWiki’s problem with statistics and estimation, and highlighting your own willingness to overlook critical flaws in data analysis just to serve your own right-wing political ends.
Secondly, the top result article for “Uyghur genocide” circles back to reports by Zenz for allegations of genocide, and people referencing Zenz. I can go on and on, the most credible report is the UN report that you refuse to look at, and China’s response to it thoroughly debunks or contextualizes everything brought up. The reason you should read the reports is so that you can understand what the actual allegations are, rather than listening to a far-right christofascist propagandist paid by the US government to discredit China and other left wing groups.
Uyghur population growth in Xinjiang exceeeds the average population growth in Xinjiang. Further, the “Xinjiang Police Files,” sourced by Zenz, contain entirely fabricated stories about the vast majority of the people in it (names redacted from the public release):
As for rationalwiki being liberal, they absolutley are. For example, they call Friedrich Engels the “dictator of writing” on their “notable communists” subsection of the communism page:
They also call every socialist leader a “dictator,” and include Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge an example of “communism.” These people are not serious, they are liberals that maintain the US government’s line on its enemies to a T. This goes well with your support of a literal CIA propagandist, Adrian Zenz.
I’ve moved no goalposts. You keep defending and dodging Zenz’ clear biases and proven track record of lying, manipulating data, and belief that China is the anti-christ. For example, Zenz showed a picture of elderly people recieving medical care at a clinic, and used it to boost his “forced sterilization” theory.
This is what Zenz writes:
Why on Earth do you complain about creationists as though they have nothing worthy to say, while simultaneously using a crank propagandist that believes homosexuality is a sin, and that the rapture is coming within decades?
He also downplays actual islamophobia:
RationalWiki tries to claim it is a fallacy to look at Zenz’ views and methodology, as “even the far-right can be correct.” However, this itself is a fallacy meant to stop the reader from seriously considering the validity of the information presented. If known liars and cranks that manipulate data are to be treated the same as scientific analysis, including when groups like the Arab League find no evidence of genocide, then you should certainly trust anti-imperialist reporting like from the Grayzone when it presents information clearly debunking RationalWiki and Adrian Zenz.
Edit: to respond to a few of your edits, you were homophobic by saying I am defending “daddy Xi,” using contextual societal shame towards gay relationships as a weapon against me discrediting far-right slander. As for your defense of the far-right, you’re defending a far-right CIA propagandist and a right-liberal opinion blog in wiki form.
You’re showing how Zenz’ estimations are baseless, and RationalWiki is wrong.
How?
Zenz invented numbers pulled from thin air from a tiny sample size.
Do you not know how to read? I literally gave an answer for this at the very start of my previous response.
You aren’t highlighting how the Grayzone is wrong…
I am though. Is “nuh uh” the best you’ve got?
…you’re proving RationalWiki’s problem with statistics and estimation, and highlighting your own willingness to overlook critical flaws in data analysis…
How? Expand on these baseless statements maybe? It’s also really funny how you’ve essentially turned this into a RationalWiki vs Grayzone argument.
…just to serve your own right-wing political ends.
I thought I was a post-left anarchist. But if you say so I guess.
Secondly, the top result article for “Uyghur genocide” circles back to reports by Zenz for allegations of genocide, and people referencing Zenz.
Hmm I wonder why. Maybe because he is a researcher in this topic?
I can go on and on, the most credible report is the UN report that you refuse to look at, and China’s response to it thoroughly debunks or contextualizes everything brought up.
You must be trolling at this point. Do you want me to repeat myself for the 4th time?
The reason you should read the reports is so that you can understand what the actual allegations are, rather than listening to a far-right christofascist propagandist paid by the US government to discredit China and other left wing groups.
Yes, the left wing group of… China…
Uyghur population growth in Xinjiang exceeeds the average population growth in Xinjiang.
As for rationalwiki being liberal, they absolutley are. For example, they call Friedrich Engels the “dictator of writing” on their “notable communists” subsection of the communism page…
Have you ever heard of jokes?
They also call every socialist leader a “dictator,” and include Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge an example of “communism.”
It’s a wiki, go and discuss changing it if you have evidence against these claims.
These people are not serious, they are liberals that maintain the US government’s line on its enemies to a T.
Damn. This RationalWiki conspiracy goes deep huh? Why are you so mad at this singular source I cited?
This goes well with your support of a literal CIA propagandist, Adrian Zenz.
Damn.
I’ve moved no goalposts.
Except for the ones you did. Instead of engaging with my rebuttal against the claim that Zenz lied about IUD rates, you immediately switched to how Arab League countries found no wrongdoing. Then when I gave a rebuttal to that you immediately switched to how “Zenz claimed to have interviewed 8 Uyghur people and deduced that millions must be incarcerated”. And then when I gave my rebuttal to that you very obviously didn’t read it and switched to how I’m homophobic and far right, how RationalWiki is liberal, and how Zenz is a douchebag.
You keep defending and dodging Zenz’ clear biases and proven track record of lying, manipulating data, and belief that China is the anti-christ.
Are you okay? Hallucinating? I never defended or dodged those things. I gave rebuttals. I acknowledged that he’s biased, but also acknowledged that that singular reason doesn’t make his research untrustworthy. I debunked your claims about him lying and manipulating. And I really couldn’t give two shits about how evangelical he is. It is also weird how you’re so focused on this one researcher.
For example, Zenz showed a picture of elderly people recieving medical care at a clinic, and used it to boost his “forced sterilization” theory.
Did he now? Where’s the source?
This is what Zenz writes…
Okay.
Why on Earth do you complain about creationists as though they have nothing worthy to say, while simultaneously using a crank propagandist that believes homosexuality is a sin, and that the rapture is coming within decades?
I never complained about creationists, nor did I ever say they have nothing worthy to say. I just referenced how creationists tend to omit parts of texts that hurt their feelings.
He also downplays actual islamophobia…
Okay. Like you continuing to poison the well doesn’t prove his research or data wrong.
RationalWiki tries to claim it is a fallacy to look at Zenz’ views and methodology…
No they don’t. RationalWiki addressed criticisms made against Zenz’s methodology, and accurately identified how using what kind of person Zenz is against his research is an ad hominem. And not ad hominem in the insult sense.
However, this itself is a fallacy meant to stop the reader from seriously considering the validity of the information presented.
If known liars and cranks that manipulate data are to be treated the same as scientific analysis…
You still haven’t proven any of this. But keep repeating. Maybe it’ll become reality.
…including when groups like the Arab League find no evidence of genocide…
then you should certainly trust anti-imperialist reporting like from the Grayzone when it presents information clearly debunking RationalWiki and Adrian Zenz.
I know how to read, rationalwiki is wrong. Again, they extrapolated numbers based on a tiny sample size. It’s pretty simple, RationalWiki goes to great lengths to justify the US State Department narrative. Funny that you cite another CIA cutout, Radio Free Asia. Statistical analysis shows no evidence of sterilization campaigns for Uyghur people.
You’re getting lost in the sauce, Zenz used this picture of a clinic as evidence of sterilization:
The reason why I focus on Zenz, is because the only “evidence” you’ve brought is from him alone. I asked you to read the UN report, and China’s response, and instead you decided that it’s better to keep going back to Adrian Zenz and the Xinjiang Police Files as your only allegations. I gave you something more credible to work with, with more serious allegations, and you instead picked RFA (CIA cutout), the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation (CIA cutout), Adrian Zenz (far-right professional propagandist, islamophobe, downplayer of Palestinian genocide, and christofascist homophobe), and one opinion blog.
The fact that independent muslim sources that found no evidence of genocide, and as such are in favorable trade agreements with China, does not in any way mean that they were pressured into doing so. Many orgs have gone to China to see the re-education centers in Xinjiang, and allegations of genocide have been dropped by everyone except CIA cutouts and western propagandists for lack of evidence.
Disengage if you want, but you can’t both disengage and get the last word in in the same comment. I’m not a troll, but I suspect you are.
The christofascist on a mission from God to punish China was thoroughly discredited by none other than…
Yeah. That’s who I trust. Maybe check your own sources before disparaging others’.
Search engines exist, you know that right?:
https://adrianzenz.medium.com/a-response-to-the-report-compiled-by-lin-fangfei-associate-professor-at-xinjiang-university-bdad4bbb97f9
Tell me, where have I shown absolute faith in anybody in this thread? You keep talking about how Zenz is a far-right asshole. Do you not realize that Zenz is not the only person researching this?
If you want to cite arguments from the files you linked feel welcome to do so. But I’m not going to read 130 pages of China sucking itself off, nor am I going to read the 40 page UN report (at least right now) to debunk dumbfuck trolls on Lemmy.
Your source “debunking” the Grayzone is RationalWiki, which is a right-wing misinformation justification wiki. Note how none of the arguments presented by the Grayzone against Zenz are tackled, just how the Grayzone reports.
Further, again, Zenz is misrepresenting the data. The only source on him not misrepresenting the data is himself. You further don’t actually tackle how he is misrepresenting the data, you’re just misrepresenting how Xinjiang now has higher access to birth control as “forced sterilization,” a claim that has no backing beyond Zenz’ own words.
Yes, Zenz isn’t the only one researching this! People like the Arab League went to Xinjiang and found no evidence of genocide. Instead, the groups that push the genocide narrative all circle back to Zenz, then reference each other. In this way, the narrative of genocide appears to have more legitimacy, despite all linking back to shoddy claims by an admitted professional propagandist.
I find it telling that you’ll only listen to a christofascist, not the UN, and not the PRC’s official response and evidence. It’s the christofascists that deflect from Palestinian genocide that you trust completely, not hard evidence nor even the most official allegations by the UN. Truth doesn’t seem to matter to you, what matters is that christofascist propagandists are trusted. This is Iraq’s supposed WMD and South Africa’s supposed “White Genocide” all over again.
The reality reversal is fucking crazy. RationalWiki is the right-wing misinformation wiki now?
A lot of their arguments are debunked here instead.
Have any sources for that?
I literally said, if you want to argue with the information that is present in those in total 180 page documents feel free to do so. But I find it telling that you’ll ignore the stuff I say in order to defend daddy Xi at all costs instead. You’re actually a fucking joke.
Correct, RationalWiki is run by right-wing liberals. Read the article linked, the sources are cited on the article and you can check them yourself. For example, Zenz claimed to have interviewed 8 Uyghur people and deduced that millions must be incarcerated:
The source for this is just reading what Zenz and co posted themselves. The Grayzone is just highlighting clear problems with how Zenz gathers data.
As for sources on the Arab League visiting Xinjiang and finding no evidence of genocide, here’s Middle East Monitor reporting on it. I already linked this to you before, but this is an additional source just for fun. It’s really easy to find this online. As for pretty much all major allegations of genocide leading back to Zenz, here’s an example from BBC, which merely reports what Zenz says with little commentary.
Wierd bit of homophobia on your part at the end, but I can’t say I’m surprised by that behavior from you, given your defense of the far-right. You haven’t even looked at the reports, so there’s nothing here to argue yet, all we have found is that you believe far-right christofascist propagandist Adrian Zenz is infallible, and right-liberal RationalWiki is a reliable way to avoid engaging with a group that simply highlights Zenz’ background, methodology, and mistakes.
And how did they deduce that? Maybe with the additional help of official Chinese government documents?:
And I’m highlighting how they’re wrong.
“This one article about Uighurs links back to Zenz so all articles link back to Zenz” do you even hear yourself?
Sorry, where was I homophobic?
Where did I defend the far-right you fucking moron? Are you fantasizing arguing with an alter ego of mine?
This is the third time I’m saying this. You’ve not made a single point about anything in the reports YOU shared. What the fuck would me reading them change. Make an argument, cite it, then I’ll check. I’m not going to read 180 pages to debunk literally no argument.
Where did I say that dipshit? Show me, where did I say that?
Lol. Lmao even. “Everything I don’t like is liberal” to the nth degree. Well, they’re not though:
I’m directly engaging with the shit you keep spewing. I don’t want to type out paragraphs against worn-out arguments myself, that’s why I just send already existing rebuttals. You don’t want to engage with the rebuttals I send though, so you just keep moving the goalposts. Great job!
You’re showing how Zenz’ estimations are baseless, and RationalWiki is wrong. Zenz invented numbers pulled from thin air from a tiny sample size. You aren’t highlighting how the Grayzone is wrong, you’re proving RationalWiki’s problem with statistics and estimation, and highlighting your own willingness to overlook critical flaws in data analysis just to serve your own right-wing political ends.
Secondly, the top result article for “Uyghur genocide” circles back to reports by Zenz for allegations of genocide, and people referencing Zenz. I can go on and on, the most credible report is the UN report that you refuse to look at, and China’s response to it thoroughly debunks or contextualizes everything brought up. The reason you should read the reports is so that you can understand what the actual allegations are, rather than listening to a far-right christofascist propagandist paid by the US government to discredit China and other left wing groups.
Uyghur population growth in Xinjiang exceeeds the average population growth in Xinjiang. Further, the “Xinjiang Police Files,” sourced by Zenz, contain entirely fabricated stories about the vast majority of the people in it (names redacted from the public release):
As for rationalwiki being liberal, they absolutley are. For example, they call Friedrich Engels the “dictator of writing” on their “notable communists” subsection of the communism page:
They also call every socialist leader a “dictator,” and include Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge an example of “communism.” These people are not serious, they are liberals that maintain the US government’s line on its enemies to a T. This goes well with your support of a literal CIA propagandist, Adrian Zenz.
I’ve moved no goalposts. You keep defending and dodging Zenz’ clear biases and proven track record of lying, manipulating data, and belief that China is the anti-christ. For example, Zenz showed a picture of elderly people recieving medical care at a clinic, and used it to boost his “forced sterilization” theory.
This is what Zenz writes:
Why on Earth do you complain about creationists as though they have nothing worthy to say, while simultaneously using a crank propagandist that believes homosexuality is a sin, and that the rapture is coming within decades?
He also downplays actual islamophobia:
RationalWiki tries to claim it is a fallacy to look at Zenz’ views and methodology, as “even the far-right can be correct.” However, this itself is a fallacy meant to stop the reader from seriously considering the validity of the information presented. If known liars and cranks that manipulate data are to be treated the same as scientific analysis, including when groups like the Arab League find no evidence of genocide, then you should certainly trust anti-imperialist reporting like from the Grayzone when it presents information clearly debunking RationalWiki and Adrian Zenz.
Edit: to respond to a few of your edits, you were homophobic by saying I am defending “daddy Xi,” using contextual societal shame towards gay relationships as a weapon against me discrediting far-right slander. As for your defense of the far-right, you’re defending a far-right CIA propagandist and a right-liberal opinion blog in wiki form.
How?
Do you not know how to read? I literally gave an answer for this at the very start of my previous response.
I am though. Is “nuh uh” the best you’ve got?
How? Expand on these baseless statements maybe? It’s also really funny how you’ve essentially turned this into a RationalWiki vs Grayzone argument.
I thought I was a post-left anarchist. But if you say so I guess.
Hmm I wonder why. Maybe because he is a researcher in this topic?
You must be trolling at this point. Do you want me to repeat myself for the 4th time?
Yes, the left wing group of… China…
No, it doesn’t.
Have you ever heard of jokes?
It’s a wiki, go and discuss changing it if you have evidence against these claims.
Damn. This RationalWiki conspiracy goes deep huh? Why are you so mad at this singular source I cited?
Damn.
Except for the ones you did. Instead of engaging with my rebuttal against the claim that Zenz lied about IUD rates, you immediately switched to how Arab League countries found no wrongdoing. Then when I gave a rebuttal to that you immediately switched to how “Zenz claimed to have interviewed 8 Uyghur people and deduced that millions must be incarcerated”. And then when I gave my rebuttal to that you very obviously didn’t read it and switched to how I’m homophobic and far right, how RationalWiki is liberal, and how Zenz is a douchebag.
Are you okay? Hallucinating? I never defended or dodged those things. I gave rebuttals. I acknowledged that he’s biased, but also acknowledged that that singular reason doesn’t make his research untrustworthy. I debunked your claims about him lying and manipulating. And I really couldn’t give two shits about how evangelical he is. It is also weird how you’re so focused on this one researcher.
Did he now? Where’s the source?
Okay.
I never complained about creationists, nor did I ever say they have nothing worthy to say. I just referenced how creationists tend to omit parts of texts that hurt their feelings.
Okay. Like you continuing to poison the well doesn’t prove his research or data wrong.
No they don’t. RationalWiki addressed criticisms made against Zenz’s methodology, and accurately identified how using what kind of person Zenz is against his research is an ad hominem. And not ad hominem in the insult sense.
Oh yes, the Fallacy of Stopping the Reader from Seriously Considering the Validity of the Information Presented. Look, they even have a page for it 🤡.
They indeed point out how his beliefs call for significant scrutiny to his research:
And it’s really weird how you’re still so focused on this singular source I cited.
You still haven’t proven any of this. But keep repeating. Maybe it’ll become reality.
Yeah, the anti-imperialist reporting from… the pro-kremlin, antivax, anti-renewable Grayzone.
At this point I’m fully convinced that you’re a troll. If anybody isn’t, I feel sorry for them. Disengage.
I know how to read, rationalwiki is wrong. Again, they extrapolated numbers based on a tiny sample size. It’s pretty simple, RationalWiki goes to great lengths to justify the US State Department narrative. Funny that you cite another CIA cutout, Radio Free Asia. Statistical analysis shows no evidence of sterilization campaigns for Uyghur people.
You’re getting lost in the sauce, Zenz used this picture of a clinic as evidence of sterilization:
The reason why I focus on Zenz, is because the only “evidence” you’ve brought is from him alone. I asked you to read the UN report, and China’s response, and instead you decided that it’s better to keep going back to Adrian Zenz and the Xinjiang Police Files as your only allegations. I gave you something more credible to work with, with more serious allegations, and you instead picked RFA (CIA cutout), the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation (CIA cutout), Adrian Zenz (far-right professional propagandist, islamophobe, downplayer of Palestinian genocide, and christofascist homophobe), and one opinion blog.
The fact that independent muslim sources that found no evidence of genocide, and as such are in favorable trade agreements with China, does not in any way mean that they were pressured into doing so. Many orgs have gone to China to see the re-education centers in Xinjiang, and allegations of genocide have been dropped by everyone except CIA cutouts and western propagandists for lack of evidence.
Disengage if you want, but you can’t both disengage and get the last word in in the same comment. I’m not a troll, but I suspect you are.