My crippled kernel count is around 6, how about yours?
Nearly always it’s been during the live USB install of a dual-boot that a distro messes with the grub or installed grub to the USB disk itself. The fault lies with me because I’m almost blindly trusting the distro, but also with the distro for lacking proper yet succinct documentation during the install or configuration of partitions.
No no no! When you break something in Linux systems you fix it. Starting over and reinstalling everything is what you do when you mess up on Windows.
Funny I did not expect so many people that resist starting over. Next time I’ll give fixing stuff a shot :)
It is more about being lazy.
In most cases, where you havn’t destroyed your filesystem, you can just boot another Linux from a USB stick, mount your filesystems to /mnt, chroot into it, and then investigate and fix there.
See the Archlinux wiki, even if you do not use Archlinux, it is great: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Chroot
Generally yes. My exception was the time i accidentally nuked python in it’s entirety…
Well, that could have been fixed by booting from an usb stick, chrooting into you real system and either downloading and (re)installing the python package this way, or, if your package manager depends on python, download the package in the Live Linux and extracting the python package into your system, and then reinstalling it, so the package management overwrites your “manual installation”.
Could be tedious, but less so that having to reinstall everything IMO.
Fair, unfortunately it was a work machine that i needed operational again asap.
Luckily i image my machine monthly, so it was fairly straightforward to roll back.
I just spent 11 days on a dual boot repair in fstab, passwd, loads of ecryptfs, amongst other boot and login issues. Before restoring from the full system backup after getting mad to finally want to use my PC. 11 fucking days almost all day in terminal. TOO many partitions and too many folders inside of folders to get to my ecryptfs files. I got so lost LSing around.
After it all though, and it was an aneurism and a half. I still want to finish my goal and reinstall my dual boot this time correctly aiming the folders correctly.
Might help to draw it out on paper
But, when you’re done, you’ll be the Encrypted Dual-Boot God !
Pretty much everytime I try to do fancy stuff with the bootloader I get pretty close to nuking systems. Worst was my 1st UEFI system where I was trying to get rEFInd to show multiple OS to boot from… eventually gave up and went back to the warm embrace of GRUB
I just had 8 titles in boot menu all for the same OS. 🤌😅 I know exactly what I’m doing. It’s a dual boot system.
If you take the plunge and switch to systemd-boot it’s worth it. It’s the only boot manager I’ve tried in the last decade that feels like an upgrade from GRUB.
🤔 Maybe I’ll try that next time… I kinda feel loyal to Grub, it’s been my friend for sooo looong.
I would actually be amazed if I ever bricked a PC fucking around with installing software to it. At the very worst, I might have to move a jumper pin to flash the CMOS and start fresh like I never even touched the thing. If somehow even that fails, it would be a unique experience.
Not sure you can fully brick a PC. Simple BIOS update and your back to scratch load an OS and go again. Hardware failure. That’s where the bricking happens.
It’s even better if your only internet connection is that computer you broke.
This is the nightmare of my last 2 weeks. Well 11 days.
Ah yes, reminds me of messing with my 1st pfSense firewall… I learned how good their recovery process was that evening
Just bricked my Proxmox install an hour ago and I had the pleasure to learn their recovery process sucks. (At least for my case)
Ah, yeah, you’ve just reminded me, I must move my stuff off proxmox when I get a chance.
I tried that proxmox backup thing when I first set it up, good god what a complex mess… backup & recovery needs to be as simple and as smooth as possible.
Great incentive to learn even faster
And enforces the value of installing documentation and source packages 😅
Never the kernel but just about every time I touch /etc/fstab I fuck something up. I’ve done that a lot…
I’ve messed fstab, passwd, and others up so many times. It’s a stroke to fix it and not being able to use your system for days. Zaps the drive to even mess with the computer.
Oh, I typed that line wrong to mount the drive and because the non-os drive isn’t detected you’re only going to boot to emergency mode?
Cool cool cool.
Maybe 1 or 2 back when things were less stable, but any time I have used Linux in the past 7 years or so, and particularly since I started using Debian as my primary OS, I haven’t had any problems outside of trying to get some windows applications to emulate correctly, and one time when I echo’d into sources.list with > instead of >>. Anything else is just stuff I had to learn, like my boot folder filling up with old images that have to be cleaned out occasionally.
If you want shit to just work when you want and stay out the way when you aren’t using it. Debian of whatever source is what they call stability. I’ve done rolling, and bleeding edge. It’s all a constant pain. Becomes a job to maintain or bug track or check logs. I’ll never go back.
That was my thought as well.
Back when I was new to Linux, I tried a lot of different distros in virtualization for shorter periods of time, and of course ran into the issues that come with the cutting edge stuff.
Last year I wanted to install a distribution to my laptop properly as a test before putting it onto my desktop, and I came to that same conclusion because at the end of the day I couldn’t justify using bleeding edge, because I couldn’t really even name anything I NEEDED from it. Yes, it is fun to have cool, new things, and it can be a lot of fun to play around with in a VM or something, but I don’t actually need any of that stuff for what I do on a computer day to day right this second.
After that, the answer was pretty clear for me as to what distribution to use.
May I introduce you to my lord and saviour NixOS?
Knock Knock Knock.
We (Jehovah’s Witness) would like to know if you had a minute, so we could come inside, and talk to you about OUR Lord and Savior… Linux Mint.
Sure, ok, that’s still my daily driver, it’s incredibly stable (and no, it’s not fucking outdated), but other than that it doesn’t help so much against accidentally borking your system.
So in this context, I’m recommending @[email protected] NixOS.
I tried to use dd with too much hubris once. I had to restore from backups (which ironically, I had made with dd). I’m usually overly cautious, but I was in a hurry.
I did this one a few weeks ago lmao. You think once would be enough. But I am a truly special being.
… So what should I try Linux again?
You mean why? Because you’re using your bare machine, you can use it as you wish. No nanny software limiting the fun or productivity
Yeah but breaking like six computers to do it, or one computer six times, seems like a pretty steep price for that when I basically just use my computer for gaming browsing and the occasional audio/video edit.
OP said breaking the kernel, not the machine. The computers would be fine, its pretty damn difficult to brick a computer using software, at least by accident.
Normal users will not break their kernel, op is likely doing some advanced tinkering. I have been using Linux for years and am definitely an advanced user and Ive broken my kernel zero times.
Gotcha, that’s reassuring
Nah, if you’re installing something user friendly (ie Linux Mint just for an example) it’ll work 1st time, guaranteed - or your money back.
But… you’ll only really learn once you’ve fubar’d something… just like
falling offriding a bikeI want double my money back if the free program doesn’t work!
1
So, when you say crippled kernel, do you actually mean you tweaked the kernel params/build to the point that it failed to boot? Or do you just mean you messed up some package config to the point that the normal boot sequence didn’t get you to a place you knew how to recover from and need to reinstall from scratch?
I think I’m past the point where I need to do a full reinstall to recover from my mistakes. As long as I get a shell, I can usually undo whatever I did. I have btrfs+timeshift also set up, but I’ve never had to use it.
Uhm, zero? With ten years of using Linux? What did you do to fuck up the damn kernel? o_O
It can be done if you mess with the initramfs.
The kernel starts everything else by unpacking an archive containing a minimal environment to set stuff up for later. Such as loading needed kernel modules, decrypting your drive, etc. It then launches, by default, the /init program (mines a shell script).
That program is PID 1. If it dies, your kernel will panic.
After it finishes setup, it execs your actual /sbin/init. These means it dies, and that program (systemd, openrc, dinit, runit, etc) becomes PID 1. If an issue happens, both could fail to execute and the kernel will loop forever.
Thank you for explanation :) I suspected something like that - mess up with some internals, you do have a chance to bring the thing down. Which is why I always have a bootable usb around before doing anything risky
The “starting over” part is what made it take so long for linux to “stick” with me.
Once it became “restore from an earlier image”, it was a game changer!
Every time I install or configure anything, it’s done via CLI and added to a script. Makes setup a breeze.
My game changer was circa 2014 when I broke something and got dropped to a basic shell and for the first time instead of panicking and immediately reinstalling I thought for a moment about what I had just done to break it, and undid the change manually. Wouldn’t you know it booted right up like normal.
The lesson here: if it broke, you probably broke it, and if you know how you broke it, you know how to fix it.
100%
The alternative being variations on:
Hi my name is [redacted], I have [X] years experience.
Please run
sfc /scannow.You can find more help at [Irrelevant KB URL].
Please rank me 5 stars.
Ticket closed
I could be weird for this but the starting over part actually contributed to me continuing to use linux tbh. Trying out a new distro, figuring out how to use it, and building a new user interface each time I killed my system kept me engaged with linux beyond its utility. It functioned essentially as a way to learn about computers and as a creative outlet. I don’t fuck around and find out as much as I used to but I still swap distro every year or so.
It was similar for me, but not quite the same. The thing I hated was starting from scratch. I’m very much not a distro hopper. Back in the day, I enjoyed the challenge of trying to troubleshoot issues and get the system working again, and that kept me interested, but eventually, I’d hit a problem I couldn’t resolve, and I’d have to start again from scratch, and at that point, I’d just go back to Windows.
Now, I still get to do the same thing. If I break it, I get to learn how I broke it and try and fix it, and I find that process compelling. But because I’m using btrfs restore points now, I don’t get to the point where I have to start again from scratch. So I can work at solving it to the limit of my abilities, with confidence that if I can’t work it out, it’s not a huge issue.
“Starting over” is how we learnt Windows in the 90’s too
deleted by creator
Giving our computer ghonorrea by downloading Napster mp3s
I’d just re-install Windows over the top of the fucked up install normally. It was a bit easier to recover from, and a bit harder to fuck up
Tell me more
Timeshift was a gamechanger
Timeshift itself borked my shit up. I had to reinstall all registered packages to fix its fuckups…
sudo aptitude reinstall '~i'Edit: Sure it took a long while, about as long as a full OS reinstall, but never once was there any issue with the kernel.
While only once, timeshift destroyed my bootloader. Don’t update and reboot before a meeting, kids
My test of Timeshift was pretty simple and straightforward.
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Fresh install Linux Mint
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Install most of the main software I wanted.
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Do a Timeshift backup.
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Install some extra software I didn’t necessarily need, but might want to use someday.
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Restore the backup from step 3.
Results: Everything from step 4 was still registered as installed, but almost nothing from step 4 actually worked.
So I brute force reinstalled everything in place, and haven’t used Timeshift since. I’m perfectly comfortable using the terminal, and at worst a live boot media, to fix any issues that might come up.
Timeshift is a good piece of software doing a tired trick.
The new hotness is copy on write file systems and snapshots. I can snapshot, instantly, then do a system update and revert to the previous snapshot also instantly.
Instead of using symlinks files, like Timeshift, the filesystem is keeping track of things at the block level.
If you update a block it writes a new copy of the block (copy on write). The old copy is still there and will be overwritten unless it is part of a snapshot. Since the block is already written, snapshots don’t require any data to be copied so they’re instant.
Once you finish the system update, all of the overwritten blocks are still there (part of the snapshot) and reverting is also just a filesystem operation, theres no mass data to be copied and so it is also instant.
It does use disk space, as allocated blocks AND snapshotted blocks are stored. It uses less than Timeshift though, since Timeshift copies the entire file when it changes
ZFS and btrfs are the ones to use.
Didn’t quite follow what you were saying completely. Are you suggesting a new program over time shift or change the file system type like ZFS and Btrfs? I’m using Ubuntu and not sure if I seen those before.
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I also can’t get over the fact that it doesn’t understand RAID or filesystems somehow.
