Not shown is the Democrats let the Republicans drill the hole and did not use the fact they had a majority to stop it.
I am not saying the Democrats aren’t the better of two bad options, but we shouldn’t settle for the lesser of two evils. We should expect more. With that said, it requires effort, coalition building and local effort.
If you are further left than Democrats, you should try running for local office, push the narrative to the left from all levels.
Running for office requires money a lot of people don’t have, even for local positions.
Not true. My wife ran and won for less than 300 dollars. It was a local city position, but still. It’s more community building than finances at the local level.
Also, hold events for donations.
LOL starting price for me when I tried was $16,000 and that was just to get on the ballot in a minor position.
The problem is that people just don’t vote often enough.
*If there’s a primary and the candidates are almost identical, you vote for the one who is one step closer to your position.
The Moral Majority pulled the GOP away from Rockefeller by the simple trick of showing up at every GOP function with enough bodies to win every nomination.
We have to adopt that simple trick.
Other than the fact that the Democratic majority is often in name only, I agree. Dems are only the lesser evil - we must fight to build REAL alternatives in the long term.
The reason this meme works is that it’s vague. If you zero in on a specific issue, you usually find the Dems helped drill the holes. Mass incarceration? Biden and Clinton led the charge on the largest expansion of prison-industrial complex in my lifetime. 2008 financial collapse? Clinton eliminated Glass-Steagall, which allowed banks to bundle and sell mortgages-backed securities. Iraq and Afghanistan? Bush may have started the wars, but Obama not only failed to end them, he created an unaccountable drone assassination program that killed thousands of civilians. Biden is rescheduling Marijuana, and that’s great, but he also co-sponsored anti-drug legislation in '86 and '88 that gave us draconian mandatory minimums. Are we gonna pretend he didn’t drill that hole?
Anyway, I’m not gonna sit here and pretend the parties are the same; the Republicans have been complete ghouls for my entire life, and now they’re fascist ghouls. But let’s not pretend that the Democrats are just well meaning idealists fighting against the Republicans and apathetic voters. They’ve done plenty to help sink the ship.
Yeah these are just the same reactionary knee-jerk boomer memes that racist uncles posted on Facebook in 2016. These people’s post and comment history is actually just sad, when you realize this is pretty much what they spend every waking hour of their life doing rather than joining local orgs to build and contribute to their community. I hope they get the help they need.
I have a better plan. Plug the hole.
MAGA keeps the hole open
The fact that it’s even close is an indictment of the American people. Clearly we’re too stupid to run a country. What a shithole.
I figured the point the comic was trying to make is, “undecided voters are the dumbest people on the face of the Earth.”
And the best part is they determine who runs the country
I love this.
Though, it would be more accurate if the guy said “I’ll eat your enemy’s kids to death! Oh also, that guy is your enemy, k?”
“Vote for me or the other guy will eat your children to death” is closer to what’s going on.
(“vote for me instead, I will only eat the tallest of your children!”)
“Vote for me or the other guy will eat your children to death”
Only if the image has the person who is saying that covered in signs of having eaten children.
Ok, so I think I can see what you’re trying to say, and yes you’re right the dems aren’t actually trying to fix anything or at the very least not succeeding. BUT, fixing one hole in a boat is bad enough without having to fix more. The best course of action is always to use the votes to reduce the damage done to the country and trying to fix it from a less fucked starting point.
Like my car lost all of the oil in the engine due to a cracked sump. You better believe I’m getting that fixed even though the rest of the car isn’t anything to write home about. Because attempting to continue driving it would be retarded. Allowing fascism to fester is a bit like driving your car after all the oil has been drained from the engine.
Believe me if you allow fascism to take root in your country, you will have no choice other than to submit, or risk being killed. Take a look at history. Fascist dictatorships don’t usually go away without foreign intervention. And who is going to intervene when the country with the strongest military is the fascist dictatorship? If you allow this to happen, you’re taking the whole world down with you. No freedoms for anyone. Seriously fucking fix it you ignorant fucking gun monkeys!
These “memes” irk me beyond belief. We need to stop blaming people who are uninspired or unmotivated to vote when it’s grease-ball politicians fucking us over and complacent, spineless democrats who let them get away with it. It’s their fault we’re in this mess and we need to direct the energy and anger towards them, not the result of their machinations. Yes, voting is important, go vote, but this anger towards “non-voters” is wholly misplaced; you’re just falling into the same divide and conquer strategy of the ruling class by turning on your fellow human.
We absolutely need to blame people who are uninspired or unmotivated to vote. Their unwillingness to participate is the problem. Not just the country’s, but their problem as well. You aren’t going to bring about change by opting out. It’s what that ruling class you so passionately speak out against want - for you to sit by and let it happen.
Americans who engage or even know what a primary election is are the most diehard, motivated, and engaged voting members of an American political party’s base.
That is the political phase we are in with the 2024 American elections. The convention for the Democratic Party’s platform is in August.
I have seen so many memes like this about people not voting for Biden cause he is awful, but none saying we shouldn’t vote for him. Or any comments from people saying they won’t vote for him. This is starting to seem like the Vegan people meme.
There are DEFINITELY many comments about not voting for Biden and voting for West/Stein instead.
As a former Green Party activist… People still think Jill Stein is a person worth voting for? Literally she is like Biden but a woman and a little closer to Russia.
Stein rejects helping Ukraine so you could say she is willing to stand by and watch genocide happen.
edit: West also rejects aiding Ukraine in its defense.
I don’t really doubt you I guess. I’m not as immersed yet in the fediverse as I was in that other thing.
The memes that suggest Biden is also no good for us seem to get a hell of a lot of downvotes tho.
I’m not a hundred percent sure myself what I will do in November. I still remember in either 7th or 8th grade when our social studies teacher taught us that George Washington was very opposed to a two party system and why. Around 15 or 16 years old, I realized I could vote for AL Gore, or some third party. Not because they would win. My father explained very clearly that we will never see a third party president in his lifetime, and it’s very unlikely I will either. But I did/do think more votes for them could help start the idea that it’s possible. But every fucking election, including that one against George W Bush, it was wayyyy to important to stop these awful republicans from ruining the country. I still have voted Democrat every fucking presidential election and they have been a fucking let down every time.
I’ll admit Trump was the first to actively and directly make almost everything worse, almost immediately. And no I don’t want him back. But I also don’t think he will ever get around the two term limit so the installation of a permanent fascist government does not scare me. And the public fucking thumbs up for a genocide may be my last straw with the dems for president.
I don’t know. Sorry for the rant.
I agree. They just also hasn’t been a single good candidate for either party or any third party that is truly worth voting for. They either support Israel unconditionally or oppose Ukraine’s defense.
Understandable. I dont need my third party candidate to be perfect on every issue, they won’t be elected anyways right? But yea genocide and war, those are pretty major.
Honestly, and partly because of these fucking browbeating “you HAVE to do what I say” posts, I’m not voting for him. Fuck y’all telling me what to do, I’m voting libertarian out of spite, just to piss them off.
So, now you’ve seen one I guess.
Now I can post memes telling you to vote for Biden! When I first heard the term Libertarian and realized they considered themselves a third party, I thought oooo maybe this is it. Read a little about them and realized I would have to pass.
More power to you tho.
Lol they won’t win anyway so you’re safe, but it seems to be the best party to spite-vote for because it pisses off both sides equally.
Hey you do you, but spitting them doesn’t mean much to me. They are not worth it. I just want to feel like seeing some good change in this country is possible.
I don’t want to be to defeatist, don’t get me wrong. People in this country fight for and accomplish good things every day, just feels like one step forward two steps back.
Idk, I’d like to think the same, but I think with how fractured we (citizens) are and how focused the politicians are on not making meaningful good changes, we move further from seeing any good changes anytime soon. I don’t think that Biden is the guy who will bring said good changes, and frankly my vote doesn’t matter where I am anyway. I think no matter what happens it’s no steps forward and two steps back.
Hot dam yall taking my last slivers of hope.
Lol sorry, I know the feel. Not trying to be a downer! In better news I’m installing fedora KDE on a framework laptop I just got!
At least for me, it’s the little things that keep me going!
I know they joke about me being a Russian troll a lot but it’s honestly kind of like they’ve never met an American before
Republicans understood something Democrats (and their voters) didn’t. You can’t just elect your president and that’s it, problems solved. Biden could be an angel descended from heavens, but with hostile congress, ultra-conservative courts and no cover in local states’ politics either, he can’t do shit (again, he has a ton of flaws worth criticizing)
So what people need to realize is that the key isn’t to vote, to choose anarchy or to throw their hands up in a final display of fatalism. The key is to vote more. Vote every chance you get. A school oversight election? I’m there. Local elections? At least know who the candidates are and show up. Presidential election? Don’t wait until November to choose the lesser of two evils - engage with the primary system.
Now, obviously, this takes a lot of time that people don’t have. It takes a lot of evergy on top of living your life, taking care of your family, working a job or several. Not to mention, if your state is late in the process, you might not even have that many candidates to choose from during your primary/caucus.
But this is why it’s crucial for people who have that time, money and energy to do it. Do it for people who can’t afford to take a day off to go to a school-board meeting or something.
Also, engage with your representatives. They are representing you. If you don’t agree with the way they’re voting, tell them. If they ignore you, keep the receipts and campaign for their opponent in the next primary.
And I fully realize this is a shit-ton of work. But the other side has installed fundamentalists closing down libraries and banning books, stripping women of their rights, even if you do 'the things outside of your state… they want to register pregnancies and clamp down on women who don’t reproduce. They’ve elected people who will watch the world burn while their donors profit and the Supreme Court will make sure no harm comes to them.
Is this true for some democrats? Yes. Is this true for all Republicans? No. Both sides have the power to choose the best people. Make sure you do your part and inspire others to do the same.
The boat has been sinking my entire life.
Yet you refuse to join a party, or go into local politics, curious.
Ignorant assumption is ignorant.
Semi-Hemi-Lemmygod is cynical and tired. I can’t blame them considering how long this has been going on for. Fuck, I’m just heading into my 30s and I’m already fucking bitter and exhausted.
Thanks buddy
Appeal to hypocrisy?
How about you? Live in a glass house, too?
I’m not an American, our Democracy is not in jeopardy.
You won’t get past local politics unless you’re 100% all in on supporting one of two political parties. You deviate on even one party position and they might throw you under the bus calling you a radical that supports the other side. Both of the two parties are continuing to support policies that grow the income inequality divide so it’s difficult to believe this time will be different. Telling people the other side will be worse gets less motivating every election cycle. If the “good” side was serious about doing the right thing they wouldn’t keep nominating the worst candidates possible. * I’d say this cartoon looks accurate as soon as you realize that the characters bailing out water are just there for the photo op and the boat will still sink but just a bit slower.
You won’t get past local politics unless you’re 100% all in on supporting one of two political parties.
Have you ever participated in local politics?
deviate on even one party position and they might throw you under the bus calling you a radical that supports the other side
I don’t know about local politics, but D party has well known members Mancin and AOC, who differ a lot from the platform, and in opposite directions
Local politics is this place where things can change. You’re absolutely wrong. The national party doesn’t really care too much about political positions in local politics. Hell, many times in local elections people run unopposed.
Local politics is this place where things can change.
I used to believe that. So did my dad. Until he won a local office and learned how much our system resists actual change. At all levels.
Most of us have day jobs that don’t leave time for getting involved in politics.
you don’t seem to have a “day job” based on your comment history. maybe stop being terminally online and get some sunshine you cave dweller.
Says the guy stalking my account
dont flatter yourself boy
Not shown, the socialist who already swam to shore and is waving for them to join her.
If that is the choice, Mussolini was actually not such a bad guy. Except for his army getting whipped in Abyssinia and in Greece and all his civilizational offering being supposed strength.
yeah and the mass murder, violent suppression of workers rights, the invention of fascism, etc etc etc etc etc
You do not under any circumstances have to hand it to fucking Mussolini lmao
Depends on the alternative.
Removed by mod
“We elected him once and our boat isn’t flying!1! Why isn’t he doing anything?!?” (/s)
A little later:
“Okay SURE the boat is flying but as a strong leftist advocate I really think it’s problematic how he’s treated the underpaid people who build flying boat motors, and I think we need to focus more on what Biden should be doing better to convince me to vote for him against the hole-drilling-and-baby-punching club, because I think probably I’ll sit this one out”
Also “sure, the boat’s flying now and we aren’t drowning, but what we really need is to get to land, being in a boat doesn’t even make sense. So I’m going to sit this one out because both parties want us in the boat. What’s that? The other party’s trying to sink the boat before we get to land? I don’t care, it’s about the principle of wanting to be on land!”
“I don’t see the boat flying, see this is the whole problem with the Democrats is that when people tell them they’re HURTING they just break out all these figures about altitude and tell you to stick your hand out the boat and see if you can touch the water, that’s super condescending and not very productive and unresponsive to criticism, it’s like a cult man, blue MAGA amirite, so anyway I’m definitely not voting for them NOW because now you hurt my feelings.”
you guys are commiting a genocide. there ain’t no flying boats here.
Israel is committing genocide, and that’s not the only thing happening in the world right now.
the us is funding it and propping it up. they recently went as far as threatening the hague for saying so.
Like, fuck, Biden was like, my third least favorite pick in the 2020 primaries. And he’s risen to maybe middle-of-the-pack by his actions (that is to say, I wasn’t expecting much, but I was mildly pleasantly surprised), compared to his 2020 peers. I’m not exactly his fucking fanboy, I just recognize that he’s not a Republican fucking ghoul. But the way people seem to judge actions in complete ignorance of how our government works, or of how fucking byzantine the processes even just for passing, much less implementing, legislature is… it’s exhausting, frustrating, and infuriating.
The way people talk around here you’d think the president was a monarch. I know that’s the way Trump and his sycophants want it or believe to be true, but Biden is only 1/3rd of the entire government.
If we could get people to turn out to vote in local elections, we might actually see some reforms over a period of couple years that could lead to lasting change, at least on a local level, but long term planning is impossible to sell when everybody demands a strongman who can solve every problem or issue on the federal level right now.
It’s a simple understanding that absolve them of having to think critically and take a stance. And it’s not even that hard it’s just they don’t want to consider that they might be lacking something within themselves.
Like, fuck, Biden was like, my third least favorite pick in the 2020 primaries.
Behind Bloomberg and DeLaney.
DeLaney wasn’t even on my radar. I apologize for being an ardent Bernie voter with Warren as my second choice; I understand that basically makes me a conservative in the eyes of Lemmy’s Very Serious Leftist Brigade.
Cue Aamon’s Punished Bernie.
Oh well, now we get to choose between stagnation and decline or a fairly rapid fall into christian nationalism.
Anyway, fun thing I learned: It only costs $400 USD to apply for a residency permit to Ecuador, all you have to do is prove you have over roughly $1500 of reliable income a month.
You can rent a fully furnished studio apartment for $350, like a modern apartment, kind that goes for thousands in Sea, SF or LA. A few places have very reliable public transit for a quarter, groceries cost something like a third or less than they do in the US. Also, Ecuador features a diverse range of microclimates where you can almost certainly find something you will love.
Downsides: Youre going to need to learn at least some spanish, do not go to Guyanquil, and be prepared for the power and internet to brown out with some regularity. Also in many places you will probably want a water filter.
Though for many in the US, unreliable power, internet and water likely won’t be that different.
Edit: Also crime statistics.
While Ecuador is basically only in the Western media recently for its ‘skyrocketing’ murder rate, and yes there have been lockdowns and curfews… comparing most of the affordable cities in Ecuador to most cities in the US I would ever be able to afford to live in, nearly every crime statistic, including murder, is significantly less.
Bernie voter with Warren as my second choice
If you say so.
In a world full of ‘flying boats’, asking why we aren’t also flying is valid
Nobody reasonable is asking for the impossible, we’re asking for what those who are “worse off” financially have
It’s not a world of flying boats. It’s a world of a sinking boat, see meme.
My favorite thing about this comic is that even when reaching Ben garrison levels of caption, everybody is still achieving a different takeaway message.
I can understand being unwilling to vote for Biden because he’s supporting genocide. That, taken by itself, is perfectly reasonable.
Why aren’t those otherwise intelligent, thoughtful people looking at the bigger picture, though?
Don’t they understand that under Trump, things will be much worse? What’s their moral rationale for allowing fascism to take over America, and empowering untold numbers of reprehensible people? I’m trying to understand, but I just don’t get it.
The even bigger picture is the trend of things getting progressivelly worse even when Democrats are at the helm.
For example, it was Clinton that reppealed the Glass-Steagal Act which in turn led to hyperfinancialization and the 2008 Crash and it was Obama who chose to then save Asset owners in general (i.e. the Wealthy), unconditionally and on the backs of everybody else, leading to the slowest recovery from a Crash ever and all the imballances of the US Economy at the moment which as manifesting themselves as a complete total collapse in Social Mobility and rise of Inequality and Poverty.
Clearly electing Democrats doesn’t improve things either.
The problem is of course that the US is not a Democracy (hence how there are only 2 carefully selected real options, which in this election are so bad that they’re both hard Genocide supporters) so merelly voting for a President won’t solve anything, and the only solution probably involves levels of political activism Americans aren’t used to (one might even say they’ve been conditioned against it) such as General Strikes.
I can’t argue with anything you said. I can only argue that under Democrats, authoritarianism and the erosion of civil rights happen slower. We’ll have more time to acclimate ourselves to the concept of a General Strike. There’s no reason to give facism a helping hand by skipping the election.
They don’t seem to understand that the Israel/Palestine situation is not on the ballot this November; does anyone actually think Trump would oppose Israel? Even if he personally wanted to, his supporters are all nominal Christians who would turn on him in an instant if he suddenly stopped supporting God’s Chosen People.
They understand perfectly and that’s why they’re making it on the ballot. So what’s it going to be: continue supporting genocide and lose votes or stop supporting genocide and gain votes? Seems like an obvious choice, but maybe you’re too smart and understand too much over the masses you look down upon.
Unfortunately most of Biden’s voting base hasn’t paid attention to politics since 243BC so they still think Israel is the good guy
It is on the ballot if the voters put it there. If the voters say “I’ll vote for you no matter what you do or don’t do about the genocide”, then it isn’t on the ballot.
Bur you wouldn’t be voting against genocide. Both options support it. Not voting will also reault in one of the supporters winning.
Maybe I will vote for someone who is against genocide. I know they won’t win, but I will not vote for genocide. If someone told me I had to shoot one baby, or else they would shoot two babies, I still wouldn’t shoot the one baby. I can’t do anything to stop the genocide, but that doesn’t mean I have to support it.
What if someone gives you the choice between them shooting one baby, or them shooting two? That’s more analogous to our situation. Would you simply refuse to participate, increasing the chance of both babies dying, or would you make the choice for only one and accept some responsibility? It’s basically the trolley problem.
Unironically yes, obviously I would refuse to participate in this baby murderer’s game. I’m not going to say, “Please only kill one baby,” I’m going to spit on his face and tell him to go to hell. And then he’s going to murder as many babies as he wants, as he was going to do anyway.
The choice (even if the comparison really doesn’t fit) is between one person going to kill one baby and the other person killing five. You’re complicit if the second person wins because you’re more concerned with suckling on your own genitals about how smart and principled you are instead of dealing with reality.
It’s really as simple as that, and no amount of your self-aggrandizing mental gymnastics are going to change that.
I guess I just don’t understand why someone would do this. I mean if I had a gun I’d also just shoot the murderer, but assassination is “illegal” and “a federal crime” so unfortunately that’s not an option.
We could surely further improve the analogy, but let’s not. No, I wouldn’t choose. For one, that is a sick game. Secondly, why would I even trust this person to not just keep shooting babies anyway?
No, I wouldn’t choose.
This is a choice.
Except for the anti-Semites, who make up a decent chunk of his active base. Or are they also pro-Israel?
Can anyone explain to me how the Nazis and pro-Israel crowds seem to be so friendly at the moment? It’s almost like this has nothing to do with Israel.
Except for the anti-Semites, who make up a decent chunk of his active base. Or are they also pro-Israel?
Yes.
Antisemite support of Israel is very common, because antisemites:
- Have a lot of overlap with fundies, who believe that Israel MUST exist for the apocalypse to occur
- Enjoy the thought of an ethnostate where they can deport all the Jews to
- Hate Muslims more than Jews
The Cristo-fascists are actively hoping for an Armageddon situation to bring about all their end of world predictions. The IDF may belong to a different abrahamic cult but they’re useful for fomenting that chaos in the region and lighting the lamp for jeebus or whatever the fuck they believe
It’s always going to be this way. Every election will be an emergency. Every election in my lifetime has been. We’re in an abusive relationship and we need to get out of it. We need to break the duopoly. We need sane polling methods. But, no. Just like they keep us divided they’re keeping us distracted.
The problem is that roughly half of voters want that crazy shit, so until they’re overwhelmingly the minority and have no chance of winning, they will have a platform.
They’re both fucking crazy. They’re not the same, but they’re both insane to half the fucking population. That’s their power.
It’s shitty. We’re abused spouses. At some point we have to defeat the fear and either go to a shelter or the street. Until we’re willing to do that, well, enjoy.
America is fascist already. Study history and you’ll understand.
Do you have any principles that you won’t compromise on?
Do you know how a first past the post electoral system works? Or are you young and naive, thinking that politics isn’t about compromise?
Politics is absolutely about compromise, but Democrats never really compromise with progressives. The most we get is putting weed in the hands of the pharmaceutical companies, Yippee.
Sigh. They compromise with Republicans because they don’t have all three of the house of representatives, the Senate, and the presidency. You want them to not compromise with Republicans? Give them all 3 consistently and overwhelmingly.
So, your only solution to fixing the country is to win a super majority every single election for all time, lest the next time the Republican wins, we will be a fascist dictatorship. Well, that doesn’t seem very tenable, does it?
Guess we’re just boned, right?
your only solution to fixing the country is to win a super majority every single election for all time
Wow, the strategy of consistently voting for the party that most aligns with your values? What idiots!
/s
Are you really implying that there is a conceivable reality in which Democrats win every election for the rest of time?
I’m saying if you want progress, then give Dems overwhelming and consistent victories.
You need to twist that to ‘lest we be fascist dictatorship’. We’ll see what happens after Trump, if the Republicans continue on that path. But whether they do or don’t, we’re back to progress and if you want progress.
I posits that Democrats are not the party of progress as long as they ignore progressives.
Im politically homeless.
Seems like compromise is “the political party does whatever they want and you guarantee your undying loyalty to them with your vote”. You speak of youth and naivety, but only an idiot would accept such a “deal”. If our votes have power then we should wield it.
You have a choice between two candidates who can win the election. There is no third party who can win. You speak as if there is one in a first past the post electoral system. There isn’t. If you have a way forward that doesn’t further slide us into fascism and also isn’t supportive of genocide, please enlighten me.
Sadly our only option is to not for for Trump, and the only other viable candidate is Biden. I don’t like it anymore then you do, but until we replace our electoral system with one that is more fair, it’s what we have to work with.
If the threat of withholding your vote does not scare the party that is supposedly saving democracy, then they probably don’t actually care about democracy, especially when they prioritize genocide over getting those votes.
I’d much prefer a ranked choice voting system where we had viable third parties. At the end of the day, one of two people will win the election. If you make one issue your entire focus, you lose sight of the big picture. I’ll just say this - genocide is not a joke, it’s fucked up, and I believe Israel is committing it in Gaza.
Putting that aside for now, do you care about anything else politically? Do you believe a woman should not be allowed to have an abortion, or do you support further tax cuts for the billionaires?
You’re arguing with basically bots.
Sadly our only option is to not for for Trump, and the only other viable candidate is Biden.
And you don’t need to vote for him either.
Just go sharpen your guillotines.
The fact that you think voting is an undying loyalty and not a simple strategic decision baffles me, and embodies the exact argument I keep seeing on here. You know how you wield the power of your vote? USE IT. Voting 3rd party is really dumb right now but in theory okay. Not voting simply means you don’t care.
I don’t think voting in general is undying loyalty, I think guaranteeing your vote to a party no matter what they do is undying loyalty. That’s what they demand and expect because the other guy is worse, but if that’s the strategy then they have no need to ever actually improve things because the other guy will always be worse.
So that’s a no then? About principles?
So you base your voting decision on an abstracted philosophical argument? Maybe take a good look at the US voting system and ask yourself what happens when Trump wins because people like you upheld their “principles”.
I don’t understand why it is so hard to grasp that opposition to an ongoing genocide is not “an abstracted philosophical argument”. Wake the fuck up. It’s real, and it’s happening right now. The guy you insist I vote for is angry at the idea that anyone (not even himself) be held criminally responsible!
It’a abstract because you aren’t considering the consequences of your vote. Here are your choices:
-
Genocide, unions, anti-monopoly actions, infrastructure, healthcare, loan forgiveness, an excellent cabinet, and some other things that I would consider generally good
-
Genocide, insurrection, corruption, hypocrisy, and literally so many negative things to list that I’m not capable of enumerating even a fraction of the total list
-
Either of the above is fine, pick whichever
Those are your ONLY three options. It does not matter why you choose one. It does not matter what you believe, what principles you hold, or what you personally would do as president. The future that we find ourselves in comes down to this choice and this choice only. I cannot understand how a good person who understands this would make the wrong choice, so my goal is to make it as easy to understand this as possible.
Your argument is the abstract one. You are laying out what I think are mostly bullshit choices, based on hypotheticals and assumptions (abstract). I am talking about what is happening right now (not abstract).
I am definitely not going to get drawn into the finer points of what Biden has or hasn’t done or even more lamely, what he might or mightn’t do, but I will say this: I do not give one fuck about anything in your list compared to genocide. Like are you for real? Genocide but at least some loan forgiveness? Gross.
-
So you’re saying that… I should abide by principles… by allowing my country to further descend into fascism… by not voting for a politician that could prevent that…
…right. You’re a smart mother fucker.
Don’t be mad at me because I forced you to confront your own lack of principles. I’ve got a principle, personally, that won’t allow me to vote for a genocidaire. I don’t think that’s a very high fucking bar. If we have found ourselves at an election where our choices are between two fascists, then we are already in fascism. If there is no way to vote for “no genocide” then there is no serious reason to vote.
Okay, you’ve hit on exactly what I don’t get.
Most Federal elections aren’t about good vs. bad. They’re about choosing the lesser of two evils. That’s important to remember.
As I see it, a vote for Biden OR Trump is a vote supporting genocide. On that one issue, sadly, there’s no real choice.
However, voting for Trump also brings with it sexism, racism and an inevitable threat to democracy - in addition to genocide. Crucially, changing the system for the better would become MUCH harder under Trump. Choosing not to vote at all (or voting for a 3rd party candidate with no real chance of winning) helps Trump. It would be giving up on yourself, and society as a whole. It would be saying that things are too broken to be fixed, ever, so it’s okay to let future generations suffer.
I don’t see the moral benefit in failing to choose the lesser of two evils.
A system that only allows you to choose between two enthusiastic war criminals should be given up on. There is no saving or reforming such a system. An election boycott and riots in the street are a preferable choice as far as I’m concerned.
When full support for genocide is “the lesser of two evils” then you’ve already lost. It’s straight up evil.
They’re about choosing the lesser of two evils. That’s important to remember.
Which is why evil always wins.
I’ve got a principle, personally, that won’t allow me to vote for a genocidaire. I don’t think that’s a very high fucking bar.
Pretty clearly it’s not a very high bar, since you’re supporting an intensification of that genocide and the commencement of several others. That’s a bar too low to limbo under.
Yeah man, I’m sorry but if you’re doing a genocide, fuck you. I’ve got nothing but hate for you. I don’t care who you are, or who might also do the same thing. I’ll hate them too. That’s what a principle is. If more people had such a principle maybe we could make real political changes instead of giving “political capital” to war criminals.
Yeah, I do, like harm reduction. Which is what a vote for Biden is. I’m not willing to accelerate the situation in the middle East, climate change, pollution and erosion of rights to make an ineffective point.
Ah but I hear you say Biden isn’t perfect, no the fuck he isn’t but we’re that much further from the left thanks to last time we tried this in 2016.
I know what “not perfect” looks like. Full-throated support of a genocide is more than a difference of opinion. Will anyone be left alive in Gaza by the time of our election? I can’t take the idea of campaigning for genocide as a form of “harm reduction”.
So what is your alternative? Do nothing and let even more genocide happen? Vote 3rd party and pretend you did more than nothing by voting for someone that is statistically impossible to win?
Its an honest question, because you’re clearly against harm reduction at all. If your principles don’t allow you to engage in harm reduction, what is your better solution? Doom posting on the internet till the election?
If the alternative to genocide is more genocide, then we are in a failed state for all relevant purposes. I cannot abide the concept of “harm reduction” being applied to voting for genocide (the supreme crime). If I am against harm reduction, then it follows that you are for genocide. Do you see how that works?
The election is nearly 6 months away, so we both have time to think and do a lot of stuff. The world changes around us everyday. Maybe Trump will have a heart attack and die. Maybe Biden will kill himself out of guilt. Who knows? Maybe I’ll keep reading headlines about Biden reaffirming his commitment to genocide, and posts from pugjesus about how dumb (or Russian) I must be for not recognizing how cool Joe actually i.
I hope that answers your question, and I have one for you: Imagine you convince someone like me to vote for Joe, and together we all post pro-Joe content, and we all vote real hard for him in November, and he still doesn’t quite pull it off. Even best case it’s basically a coin toss. What are you planning to do then? I mean, it will be the end of democracy, the new era of fascism and terror. Do you have plans (and means) to leave the country with your loved ones? Do you plan to stay and fight to protect your friends and neighbors? Will you just kind of muddle on going to work and voting? I don’t need your answer as much as I need you to think seriously about it, but I am curious. What preparations are you making for the worst case scenario?
Maybe I’ll keep reading headlines about Biden reaffirming his commitment to genocide, and posts from pugjesus about how dumb (or Russian) I must be for not recognizing how cool Joe actually i.
Sorry that being confronted with the consequences of your decisions is so distressing to you. It would be so nice if you could show Mean Ol’ Joe how very, very cross you are with him without having to think about the millions who will suffer under a Trump regime, or the additional aid to Israeli genocide that would result in.
It’s much nicer when you can plug your ears and not listen to the screams of the genocides you’re enabling, isn’t it?
“It’s much nicer when you can plug your ears and not listen to the screams of the genocides you’re enabling, isn’t it?”
The ball’s entirely in Biden’s court. The alternative is him doing an about face and doing what’s right. Notice how none of the moderates act like this is even an option. No, it is us, the voter who must compromise on our morals, not the person in charge who needs the vote.
When election day comes, there are only two realistic candidates. If Biden is still in support of Israel at that time, your effective choices are “Genocide”, “Much More Genocide”, or “I don’t care if there is more genocide”
Welcome to the political process. You want to be an innocent? Find yourself an autocrat willing to take responsibility for your participation in society. The rest of us will deal with the ugly process of wielding political power as citizens.
I voted for the Democrats last time. They don’t deserve my vote this time. I was under the illusion that they would be plugging up all the holes in the system so that we could move forward from this fascist nightmare. Instead, they seem to be ceding ground to the fascists.
I genuinely 100% think that Democrats would much prefer Donald Trump’s victory than a progressive platform.
Hillary Clinton was campaigning on (and truly did believe given her track record) in universal healthcare. How exactly have we moved to the left?
I’m not saying she would have moved us to the left I’m saying Donald Trump moved us to the right.
So that’s Biden’s excuse for being to the right of Hillary?
None but that’s a different argument not the one at hand.
When you run against an incumbent (Trump) you get a center candidate and platform.
If Democrats lose to Donald Trump, then it will be entirely their own fault. Progressives have said for years and years exactly what they want, but Democrats think it’s much more important to appease the Trump voters than it is to appease us. Let’s see how that pans out.
From my perspective it seems like Democrats are trying to lose.
Yeah, let the country collapse under Trump, that’ll show them! I keep seeing this foolish argument over and over on Lemmy. Not sure if Reddit was this infested with naive and/or Russian trolls.
If Trump wins, everyone who didn’t vote for Biden shares the blame. When the situation in the Middle East gets worse, you’ll be to blame. When LGBTQ people get even more targeted in the US, you will be to blame.
Weasel out of it all you want, but come November, there’s really k lot two choices vote for Biden, or (in)directly help Trump.
I still find it incredibly rich that Democrats never have to take any blame for their bad positions. It’s not even a considerable option that they actually capitulate to the voters.
You are literally victim blaming. How on earth can you act like they need progressives and then not throw them a bone at the same time?
Because the November election is not the place for that. I’d absolutely love the Democrats to move further left. First step is to make sure the current Republican Party can never win again, then, it will either collapse, or move more center to gain back some voters. As the Republicans move left, it would allow a further move left for the Democrats.
The best place to move left is with local elections, not the general election when both party candidates are already selected.
Every time progressives try to do anything, Democrats say that this is not the time and place for it seems like that goalpost keeps getting moved.
So are you suggesting the November General Election is the time? This is what I don’t understand about these threads. They don’t seem based in reality at all. What do you think will happen if people either don’t vote, or protest vote a 3rd party candidate? Please play that scenario out for me with a Trump win and how that solves anything.
It’s really hard to discern between people who are fundamentally frustrated with the system and conservative bots (in flesh or code).
In the end they’ll both lead to the same thing though, so does it really matter?
Is it the ideal time? Absolutely not. But whether it’s the November general elections, midterms or local city council, there’s always plenty of people like you popping up to say “This is not the time, this is the most important election ever!” when there’s any chance of opposition to Democratic hegemony, but when they’re on path for a comfortable win, “Oh, those policies are too extremist, they’ll be unelectable.” No matter the circumstances, Democrats always have some pretext to try and dismiss progressives and socialist, while demanding unchecked fealty in the elections from them.
If no time is ever a good time for you to listen to people, tough shit, you’re going to hear their voices when you don’t want to.
For starters, I don’t live in a swing state, so my vote is completely irrelevant. Secondly, the ball was in the Democrats’ courts to win this earlier. They threw it, they have been throwing it, and they are still throwing this election.
I fear they’ve already lost by not giving the people what they want. Again, they’re not even pretending to try to give the people what they want. What kind of selling point is “we’re not going to accomplish anything next term.”
No: Every single election where a more left-leaning choice is pitted against a less left-leaning choice is the place to do that. If enough people consistently vote for the more left-leaning choice of the two, politics is pushed to the left.
By not voting, you are saying that you don’t care which candidate wins. In this case, the choice is between a literal fascist and a more or less far-right (globally speaking) candidate. Of the two, one is clearly more left-leaning (less far-right) than the other. So you vote for that one. That’s how you make a difference.
Don’t they understand that under Trump, things will be much worse?
Under Trump, things were much better. Housing was much more affordable relative to wages. Food was much cheaper. Inflation was much lower. Illegal immigration was much lower. People are used to politicians lying to them, so they believe what they see and experience. That’s why Trump is now projected to win.
There were also riots in the streets, huge companies going out of business and massive layoffs, family farms going under because of soybean tariffs, and a massive pandemic where the federal government was confiscating PPE and selling it to Trump’s friends. All the while the president of the country was too fucking busy calling Rosie O’Donnell fat on Twitter to care.
Yeah shit was totally better back then.
If you want to understand, I can explain fairly simply.
Consider this thought experiment. We are getting $100 to split, but only if they can agree on how to split it: I get to make an offer, then you choose whether to accept. If you announce that you’ll accept whatever deal so long as accepting is better than the alternative - that is, that you’ll act “rationally” - then the rational thing for me to do is to offer you only $1, while I get $99. Researchers have actually tested this game in real life, however, and it generally doesn’t play out that way. Why? Because the numbers don’t tell the whole story of what you’re giving up by accepting a bad deal. Once you’ve demonstrated that you’ll accept a deal like that, then you’re communicating something about your behavior for all future deals. It may be rational in the context of a closed experiment, but for the general case, our minds know better than what may appear “rational” at first glance. If you tell me, “I will refuse anything less than $30,” then you are openly declaring that you intend to behave “irrationally” and trying to convince me that you will - and it would most likely produce better results than behaving “rationally.”
The moment that you say, “My only condition for voting for the democrats is that they be better than the republicans, who are unimaginably horrible,” you have sacrificed every ounce of bargaining power that you could’ve wielded. So the real calculation is not “Who’s better between Trump and Biden,” but rather, is the difference between Trump and Biden worth sacrificing all my bargaining power?" And for me, the fact that Biden is supporting genocide makes that decision very easy and straightforward. I’d rather at least try to leverage what power I have against genocide altogether, rather than supporting the “lesser genocide.” If I cannot set even something like genocide as a red line, then I am very clearly communicating to politicians that they can count on my vote no matter what they do, and they have no reason to ever consider my political priorities.
And yet your actions will lead to “more genocide” while you go and jerk off in the mirror with your newly gained bargaining power! Good job!
Good job!
Thank you!
This is a false equivalence though: In the thought experiment, you denying to split ensures that none of you get anything. In this real-world scenario, you refusing to make a choice between more or less genocide increases the chances of “more genocide” winning. By not making a choice, you aren’t punishing the person proposing the deal, you’re just allowing someone else to make the choice for you.
There are elections in which it makes sense to vote against a candidate like Biden: In every election where there is a better choice on the table. That includes primaries, it includes backing candidates opposed to him in local elections, and elections for the house and senate. That is when you make your stand.
By not voting, in any specific election, you are simply giving up your right to have an impact on the outcome. That means that if the outcome is an increase in people killed, you are responsible, because you had the option to save lives, and chose not to take it.
By voting for the lesser of two evils, you are not signalling that you accept the lesser evil, but simply that you believe it is the best possible choice of those given. You can signal that you dislike the lesser evil by voting against it when an even lesser evil is on the table (or, preferably, something actually good).
Also, it’s not like “the democrats” tactically choose a candidate that they think the voters will reluctantly accept. The candidate is specifically the person that got the most votes in the primaries. The candidates in the primaries are typically people who got enough votes to be either governor or senator or something previously. By consistently voting for the better candidate in all those elections, you can actually have an impact on the presidential nominee, and signal your beliefs to the political party, without running the risk of having a wannabe dictator become president.
It’s not a false equivalence because I never claimed it was equivalent. The purpose of the hypothetical is to explain a concept, not to draw a direct comparison.
Not voting for Biden is punishing Biden because it’s denying him something that he wants. I’m not allowing other people to make the decision for me, it’s not as if my vote passes to the next person in line or something.
Primaries are not legitimate elections. There is no oversight and no legal requirement that they be conducted fairly, or even that they be conducted at all. The democratic establishment has the ability to influence the outcome or cancel them altogether, which it exercises regularly. What should I do if the democrats said, “We’re not doing primaries at all any more, we’re going back to the old days where party elites select candidates in smoke-filled rooms?” Should I just give them my full compliance?
I reject lesser evilism for reasons I already explained.
I am not responsible if withholding my vote leads to an increase in people being killed. That’s not how responsibility works. The responsibility is on the people doing the killing, the people ordering them to, and the people supplying them with the means to do so. It’s like if a serial killer tried to plead “not guilty” on the basis that one of his hostages refused to cooperate and that caused him to fly into a rage and kill more people so it’s really the hostage who should be tried for murder. It’s an absurdity, and frankly it betrays a refusal, in your psyche, to hold politicians accountable for their failures and misdeeds, instead trying to shift the blame onto ordinary people.
In a lot of countries you can be held legally accountable for not helping someone, and your negligence leads to death or injury. I think that’s quite similar to refusing to vote, when voting can save lives.
Your vote does effectively pass to the next person in line, because you not voting means their vote becomes a larger proportion of the total. By not voting you are blindly accepting the will of others, without using your possibility of affecting the outcome.
Saying that there are no legal requirements for a primary is not a good argument for abstaining from voting in them. By your own arguments, the candidates want votes, and the party wants to nominate a candidate that has wide support. Voting in primaries is, if nothing else, a clear way of signalling what candidates you want.
In a lot of countries you can be held legally accountable for not helping someone, and your negligence leads to death or injury
In every country, giving assistance to one criminal to stop a different criminal is still a crime.
Your vote does effectively pass to the next person in line, because you not voting means their vote becomes a larger proportion of the total.
No it doesn’t.
An individual vote is extremely unlikely to affect the outcome, but what it does affect are the margins, which can be factored into future calculations. A non-voter or a third party voter is someone who could potentially be won over. My vote still exists regardless of whether I exercise it or not, and nobody else gets to use it if I don’t. I completely disagree with your framing, always have, and always will.
Saying that there are no legal requirements for a primary is not a good argument for abstaining from voting in them.
I didn’t mean that you shouldn’t vote in primaries. What I meant is that I don’t believe in relying on something that the DNC provides, controls, and could take away at any time, as a reliable method of opposition.
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So true. Where’s all the reply guys who love to say “this is russian propaganda! Vote biden!”
Based on my experience, they’re probably about to show up and complain that two paragraphs is too long to read, or chime in with some cheap rhetorical snipes, or pick apart the hypothetical for not being directly analogous while ignoring the concept that it’s there to demonstrate - basically whatever brings the conversation closer to a cable news tier of debate.
