How about we just don’t suck the dicks of authoritarian wannabe dipshits that have proven they can’t secure any information properly and can’t run any institution properly?
You actually can, it’s called regulations, policies and enforcement. Don’t vaccinate your crotch fruit? Cool, they can’t go to public school, and you just won a visit from child welfare
It’s not like we don’t have regulations, policies and (some) enforcement. But there’s still dogshit parents. And for this kind of thing, how would you even enforce it?
Why do we need to? What’s the risk, some unsupervised kid with neglectful parents might see porn? Oh man, just imagine the world-ending consequences if that happened!
by denying childcare benefits, and giving a visit from child welfare.
the school should start the procedure when they see the kid scrolling social media regularly, or if the kid regularly says they want their phone (when somehow taken away) as that means they are already kinda addicted to it. child welfare investigates whether the suspicions are true, initiates denying benefits, and communicates directly with the parents being willing to support them improving the situation, including offering free assistance from child’s psychologist. then, the point becomes not denying benefits, but recognizing that they have little time to figure it out themselves, and giving all the help they need.
Well the implementation is going to be that you prove your age to the id app that only saves the info that you’re over 18. Then the id app just tells that info to the website (or app or whatever I guess). So the site doesn’t know who is trying to prove their age or even what their age is, just that they’re over 18.
It would be nice to have that sort of quick and easy app for verifying your personal information too. I don’t think we have one where I live. We always use a bank for that and that’s more hassle than I’d like
And how would that app verify you’ve given your actual age? Now you need to deanonymize yourself to that app and while random sites might not know who you are the app does and the app also knows every site you visit (that requests your age).
So no, that’s no longer anonymous. In practice that’s just your government (as that’s the most likely source of authority to verify your age) tracking what you’re doing on the web. Is that really preferable to parents parenting their children?
You can use a driver’s license or your bank. Different methods to verify it to the app. After verification, the app won’t save the info, just the knowledge that you’re over 18.
the app also knows every site you visit (that requests your age)
Not much of a worry locally. Disabling history is probably included in this (sort of porn mode/incognito, same as your browser). The info isn’t much use locally anyway
In practice that’s just your government (as that’s the most likely source of authority to verify your age) tracking what you’re doing on the web.
Government knows you’ve verified the app but they don’t know what you’re using the app for, it doesn’t have phone home. Your app is giving the site a generated cryptographic key, the site compares that to see if it is a valid key and then accepts it. The key doesn’t carry your personal info with it, so the central db doesn’t know who is being asked about, just whether the key is valid (so someone is 18+)
And which of those systems are secure themselves, oses and their manufacturers - the answer is none. None are secure enough to trust that private information on mandatory verification systems. Not the base systems nor any systems that would share any approval tokens.
Should supermarkets just sell alcohol to 10 year olds?
I think there are plenty of places where age gating makes sense as a concept, it really is mainly the data security that’s an issue. The other is that it should be somewhat circumventable, which I think mainly requires it not being tied to identity (so much like you could get someone older to buy you alcohol you could get someone else to verify your age).
What I think is bad is age gating social media instead of doing something about how harmful it is because clearly adults are not immune and all that does is make it harder for children to get important information.
Maybe, but that doesn’t matter since automated age verification doesn’t work. Kids always figure out ways to bypass it, and it snares unlucky adults all the time.
Hell naw, that’s an arbitrary take. There’s no “child things” or “adult things”, nor “male things” or “female things”, just things, and the “male”/“female”/“child”/“adult” is an arbitary tag we put on them.
And even if there are some things that aren’t so good for the child to see, the only correct way to address that is educating them, guiding them, listening to them and, over all, treating them as humans, the “we need to block this to children” is totally adultist.
No, “not all stuff is for kids” means “kids should never watch this”, and what I’m saying is “kids can see this with the appropiate tutoring and supervision”, these are two really distinct things.
You can protect the identity and all other info of the person than if they’re over 18 or not. I think that’s a lot better than the other ways sites are now using.
Unless you think it of just as bad because a site knowing if you’re 18+ is a violation of privacy, so might as well give them everything haha
I don’t think you understand the situation. They’re already doing the id verification. They’re not going to stop with that. I’d much prefer telling a site I’m 18+ than having to send in photos of my id to every random website out there. 🤷♂️
That “it’s not going away” attitude is the fucking problem…
We should fucking fight it, either by good or by bad, because that defeatism is what they want, they want us to think that TINA, then, little by little, force ourselves to do things that at first would seem unacceptable to us.
Slightly better is still better, but imo a site knowing just an age range (18+) of someone they don’t know compared to them having a picture of my id with all my info (name, dob, social security number, face, all that) is a lot, a lot better imo
The QR/one time code way makes a lot more sense and avoids this issue
Fuck all that noise.
How about we just don’t suck the dicks of authoritarian wannabe dipshits that have proven they can’t secure any information properly and can’t run any institution properly?
I don’t know exactly what you mean, I just think for age gating there’s ways that are a lot better
Like parents actually parenting and activating the built in restrictions for their children’s devices?
The whole credit card system worked until pron websites gave you stuff for free. The average kid couldn’t acquire a credit card without being caught.
It’s probably more effective done at the other end. It’s not like you can make parents parent
You actually can, it’s called regulations, policies and enforcement. Don’t vaccinate your crotch fruit? Cool, they can’t go to public school, and you just won a visit from child welfare
It’s not like we don’t have regulations, policies and (some) enforcement. But there’s still dogshit parents. And for this kind of thing, how would you even enforce it?
Why do we need to? What’s the risk, some unsupervised kid with neglectful parents might see porn? Oh man, just imagine the world-ending consequences if that happened!
I was thinking gambling but porn is illegal to buy for under 18-yo in some places so they might use the age gating for that too
by denying childcare benefits, and giving a visit from child welfare.
the school should start the procedure when they see the kid scrolling social media regularly, or if the kid regularly says they want their phone (when somehow taken away) as that means they are already kinda addicted to it. child welfare investigates whether the suspicions are true, initiates denying benefits, and communicates directly with the parents being willing to support them improving the situation, including offering free assistance from child’s psychologist. then, the point becomes not denying benefits, but recognizing that they have little time to figure it out themselves, and giving all the help they need.
That sounds a lot more involved, expensive and burdensome to people than just having the site ask you to verify with the app
That’s the issue. We don’t need nanny’s to age gate us on the internet. All it does is create a very short path to removing anonymity on the internet
Don’t mind some age gating tbh. It would have to be pretty convenient and anonymous though.
So lets just take kids off the internet. Sounds pretty great to me.
Man, that would be fun. Probably healthier for them too haha
How do you imagine it will be anonymous? Or convenient, for that matter.
Well the implementation is going to be that you prove your age to the id app that only saves the info that you’re over 18. Then the id app just tells that info to the website (or app or whatever I guess). So the site doesn’t know who is trying to prove their age or even what their age is, just that they’re over 18.
It would be nice to have that sort of quick and easy app for verifying your personal information too. I don’t think we have one where I live. We always use a bank for that and that’s more hassle than I’d like
And how would that app verify you’ve given your actual age? Now you need to deanonymize yourself to that app and while random sites might not know who you are the app does and the app also knows every site you visit (that requests your age).
So no, that’s no longer anonymous. In practice that’s just your government (as that’s the most likely source of authority to verify your age) tracking what you’re doing on the web. Is that really preferable to parents parenting their children?
You can use a driver’s license or your bank. Different methods to verify it to the app. After verification, the app won’t save the info, just the knowledge that you’re over 18.
Not much of a worry locally. Disabling history is probably included in this (sort of porn mode/incognito, same as your browser). The info isn’t much use locally anyway
Government knows you’ve verified the app but they don’t know what you’re using the app for, it doesn’t have phone home. Your app is giving the site a generated cryptographic key, the site compares that to see if it is a valid key and then accepts it. The key doesn’t carry your personal info with it, so the central db doesn’t know who is being asked about, just whether the key is valid (so someone is 18+)
The app is from the government and open source at every endpoint. You can see for yourself that it doesn’t track activity.
Easy. You set the age in the os (or age range) per system account.
Apps can then request this and allow/ deny based on it. Requires admin / sudo to update age range.
No need for 3rd parties, id or anything else.
If parents are concerned about it they can implement it easily. If not, they can ignore it.
So any unchecked web/app developer can see if a child is visiting their site? No thanks. This will make children less safe.
I will VPN to mars before I upload my ID, or that of my child for that matter. Not a chance in hell.
They already want this, but in a worse way 😆
But it needs to be verified there first in some way, and then services will need to somehow verify that your device properly verified it.
And which of those systems are secure themselves, oses and their manufacturers - the answer is none. None are secure enough to trust that private information on mandatory verification systems. Not the base systems nor any systems that would share any approval tokens.
Why does it need to be verified? If the parents set it up as an adult they can’t be mad when its treated as an adult?
That’s fucking tivoization
Age gating is bad itself.
Should supermarkets just sell alcohol to 10 year olds?
I think there are plenty of places where age gating makes sense as a concept, it really is mainly the data security that’s an issue. The other is that it should be somewhat circumventable, which I think mainly requires it not being tied to identity (so much like you could get someone older to buy you alcohol you could get someone else to verify your age).
What I think is bad is age gating social media instead of doing something about how harmful it is because clearly adults are not immune and all that does is make it harder for children to get important information.
I’m not talking about that… I agree that you can’t sell alcohol, or cigars, or anything like tat, to children.
But there’s a difference between that and online content.
I didn’t said age gating was bad in alll contexts, but that age gating information, media and content is bad.
Eh I don’t mind. Not all stuff is for kids.
Maybe, but that doesn’t matter since automated age verification doesn’t work. Kids always figure out ways to bypass it, and it snares unlucky adults all the time.
We have carding, same issue with that but imo it’s alright
Yeah, that’s why you monitor what the kids you’re responsible for are doing on the internet. It’s trivial to setup parental controls on a network.
You should do that regardless tbh
Hell naw, that’s an arbitrary take. There’s no “child things” or “adult things”, nor “male things” or “female things”, just things, and the “male”/“female”/“child”/“adult” is an arbitary tag we put on them.
And even if there are some things that aren’t so good for the child to see, the only correct way to address that is educating them, guiding them, listening to them and, over all, treating them as humans, the “we need to block this to children” is totally adultist.
That’s what people mean by “not all stuff is for kids”
No, “not all stuff is for kids” means “kids should never watch this”, and what I’m saying is “kids can see this with the appropiate tutoring and supervision”, these are two really distinct things.
I think it’s more “we should try to get kids see less of this”, nobody thinks laws about age restrictions gets them all, that’s just unrealistic
I think no ASL covers it for the Internet. Going against the most basic rule is kind of ridiculous.
If it’s going to be implemented imo it’s better to do with a privacy respecting centralized fashion than sending your id pics all over the place
You can’t violate and protect privacy at the same time.
You can protect the identity and all other info of the person than if they’re over 18 or not. I think that’s a lot better than the other ways sites are now using.
Unless you think it of just as bad because a site knowing if you’re 18+ is a violation of privacy, so might as well give them everything haha
Your arguing for the elimination of privacy as a solution to privacy.
You are naive if you think this is anything other than a demand from advertisers to ensure it is human being advertised to and not a bot.
I don’t think you understand the situation. They’re already doing the id verification. They’re not going to stop with that. I’d much prefer telling a site I’m 18+ than having to send in photos of my id to every random website out there. 🤷♂️
No. Fuck off
They’re already doing the verification and it’s not going away. I definitely prefer a better way to do it
That “it’s not going away” attitude is the fucking problem…
We should fucking fight it, either by good or by bad, because that defeatism is what they want, they want us to think that TINA, then, little by little, force ourselves to do things that at first would seem unacceptable to us.
Yeah, it’s evil. We have to fight back
But in this case there’s already a lot worse system in place. Why not get a better system while also fighting the verification thing?
you are not fighting the verification thing, you are applauding it
I’m pretty indifferent to there being age gates. I hate the shitty implementation though, I’d never sent my id to random sites
You’re part of the problem.
For wanting a better system? lol
No, get rid of the bad system and be done with it. No compromise. This isn’t something that needs to exist at all.
I sincerely wish you luck in your endeavor, but I’m not very optimistic about it so in the meanwhile, better system would be better
oh you can go and wish good lucks to yourself too, because you will need it if this becomes widely adopted
Age checks are already widely adopted, using a lot worse system. This new system that’s better is being implemented
So no luck needed for that at least
Aren’t you tired begging for crumbs?
I want a ten course dinner with hookers and blow. Nothing less will do.
I mean I’d rather get crumbs than nothing? lol
Just seems pragmatic to me
The better system is no system
Wouldn’t that be the best system? This system is a lot better but better just means better than the other thing
let me correct you. this system is slightly better. the word you were looking for is slightly.
Slightly better is still better, but imo a site knowing just an age range (18+) of someone they don’t know compared to them having a picture of my id with all my info (name, dob, social security number, face, all that) is a lot, a lot better imo
That…doesn’t work. Just because you saw one dumb YouTuber say something doesn’t make it true.
I’m not sure if there’s some popular video you’re talking about but I’m talking about the EU ID proposal. Haven’t seen any videos about it
Does it, though?
Have the app you use to verify scan it so it can sanitize it