Artist Jingna Zhang built Cara, a platform explicitly intended to protect artists from having their art stolen by AI…and yet these people just won’t leave them well enough alone.
“defending AI art”… jesus, that’s sad.
Imagine having so little talent that you consider AU generated slop “art”
Well that’s not very nice. I’m sure some Australians are talented artists.
I thought they were talking about gold.
I thought they were trying to get the attention of someone across the street.
Yeah good luck asshole.
PSA to anyone who uploads art online, anywhere. Poison it first. Use the latest version. I’m sorry but you are in an arms race now. Dickhead over here is full of shit, but even if they’re not, Nightshade is updated fast.
Poisoning it is sadly an Arms Race, one that will inevitably be lost
And then won, and then lost, and then won. That’s how an arms race works. And we have the advantage in numbers. There are far more people who don’t want their shit scalped than people working for the morons at OpenAI, or Google or Anthropic. And yes, they ARE morons. The battle is only lost when one side gives up. You only lose when you accept defeat.
The problem there is that every cycle the old ‘protected’ images become useable in training.
There is no numbers advantage when less than .001% of images are poisoned and of those 99.99% are using outdated tools.
Besides, what’s the goal? Slow its progress down by a few weeks? The inevitable will happen regardless. Do you think people who edited their reddit comments before coming to lemmy made any difference? It’s laughably easy for an AI to tell is garbage data, even easier when you’re using a tool whose source the AI can view.
You know we could just upload an unedited photo to a platform, and then that platform keeps it unedited on a server. Then before exposing to web uses the latest poisoning service periodically. Remove the old edited photo, and apply again to the “raw” with the new updated service. Problem solved. Not super efficient, but still a solution made while shitting on the toilet. I’m sure there’s better.
Yeah fuck this defeatism. Anything you can do you do it. Same thing with anything you strongly disagree with.
Even if you’ve failed don’t give the impression that this was something you went along with. Don’t make it seem like this was just the natural zeitgeist and no one fought it.
Hopefully there will be history in the future, and if there is it should record the fact that there were once humans who tried to be a nuisance over what they believed in even when all the money in the world was against them.
An Arms Race always reaches an end, and sadly there’s more money and resources on the side of AI (but less people) than the side of anti (which has lots of people, but barely any money, and barely any resources)
It will end in defeat, but a slow gradual one at least
2 things.
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Master locks are the easiest to pick and still the most popular. I don’t see you advocating for leaving your bike unlocked because it’s inevitable that the bike thieves win.
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That money is fake and recirculated like the air in an airplane. That’s literally what people mean when they talk about the AI bubble. All these companies are incestuous as fuck. Google invests in Nvidia who invests in Anthropic who invests in Microsoft who invest in OpenAI who invest in Nvidia who invest in Google. There’s no NEW money coming in. That has ALREADY dried up. They’re literally passing money in a circle. That’s WHY it’s a bubble, and that’s how it’s already popping.
Personally I think we should watch Oracle. They’re by far the most over leveraged. At least publicly. When they fall over, everyone else will follow. The big ones like Microsoft and Google are at least diversified and might survive, but the bubble pop will eventually catch up. OpenAI already spend $1.22 for ever $1 they make, and their expenses grow in lock step with their demand. Sam Altman’s plan to make it all profitable is to build AGI and ask it to figure it out for him because, and I cannot stress this enough, he. is. a. moron.
Your defeatist attitude is what they want because the more people that believe that, the longer the bubble is sustained.
Take heart. They are weaker than you realise. They are not infallible, their armor is paper.
I’m drunk and apologize for my flowery language.
Happy Friday, the fight is winnable.
I love you all.
I could not agree more. I’ve been having conversations with people about this since late last year and predicted that the bubble would burst some time in 2026 but I’m thinking I may be off and it could be early 2027 now. This accounting nonsense makes up a very significant portion of the US stock market, so the bubble bursting is gonna have some pretty big flow-on effects as well. I’d recommend anyone with any form of investment look into what they have and plan for a significant market event.
You are delusional to think next year is gonna be curtains for a trillion dollar industry backed by billionaire CEOs, military and government influence. The AI bubble won’t pop, if it ever does, until well into beyond the next decade.
For the AI bubble to not pop, an AI company needs to make money off of AI first. Not raising investments. They need to actually make at least $1 off of using/selling AI services.
This hasn’t happened yet, and I don’t think it ever will. The AI machines simply cost more to run than they produce, so when the investment money runs out, they’ll be shut down.
In 2007: “How could the housing bubble pop? After all, the real estate industry is backed by billionaire CEOs, military, and government influence.”
In 1999: “How could the dot com bubble pop? After all, the internet is backed by billionaire CEOs, military, and government influence.”
In 1929: “How could the Stock Market crash? After all, international capitalism is backed by millionaire CEOs, military, and government influence.”
I admire your optimism, and I really do hope you’re right!
Also I’m a fan of flowery language, so keep it up
I agree we are in a bubble, but I think we should look at what is allowing us to be in a bubble.
My best guess is that, as a society, we are completely structured around greed. If you have a way to make money, nobody is going to tell you to stop it. Obvious things that previous generations would have put a kabosh on that we are unable to, things that make some individuals money, put are socially parasitic: cryptocurrency and online gambling (that is GAMBLING spelled G-A-M-B-L-I-N-G: GAMBLING. In a sentence: Audrey spent her entire retirement GAMBLING at the casino).
In the run up to the subprime mortgate crisis, Senator Diane Warren tried to raise the alarm that these loans were structurally unsound. She got calls back from colleagues all basically saying the same thing:
We talked to our guys and they say it’s fine–they’re all making money.
They’re all making money! Therefore, the system is working as intended.
If you want to look at it more structurally, we are also ruled an elite group of mega-rich. They have more to gain and less to lose by keeping the AI train going, but they are going to crash the world economy in doing so: a great opportunity to snap up real estate for cheap for them. The rich never lose.
This rocks and you’re 100% correct. Bless you.
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Unfortunately the anti-AI side is guaranteed to lose eventually, because there’s a definitive lower bound: humans must be able to view and understand the image, ideally with no perceptible loss in quality compared to the original.
This severely limits how far poisoning can go, whereas the theoretical limit for those stealing the art is at least the same level of understanding that humans have (in the sense that our universe physically allows such a mechanism to be implemented, as demonstrated by our bodies).
At the very least it makes the case that the artist believed strongly enough to prevent people from using their art without permission that they use increasingly radical methods.
It makes it so crystal clear that these shitheads are acting in bad faith when they’re circumventing custom made solutions to keep them from using the art.
As if a sign on your website saying “not for use in AI training” shouldn’t be enough. Like imagine I posted art with the message “not for use in movies” and then it got used in a movie. Open and shut.
This. I don’t believe it’s a losing battle like some in this thread, but even if it is, it’s still worth doing.
Yeah, I’m with you there. IMO things like
robots.txtshould have legal weight.
Which is why I take a completely different direction. I poison my artwork I post online through the one technique they can’t account for.
See, I’m not super great at drawing, and in order to protect their precious models, they’d literally have to go take a look and say “yeah, that drawing wasn’t very good”. They can’t detect that automatically yet!
/sorry for a very predictable joke btw
Cunt
It’s amazing how disrespectful these idiots can be. They’ll destroy and steal people’s work, feed it to Big Corpo™ Slopinator 4.7, get shit-tier content in return, just because they chugged the kool-aid that this tech with billions of dubious investments is the future of everything.
And all because they didnt get into art school.
Who would have thought not getting into art school would be such a major cause of issues for humanity.
Let’s start an art school and let everybody in. I think we could get a Nobel peace prize.
Couldn’t they have just wiped out a bunch of Jews like a normal art school dropout?
And AI bros think they’re okay. Fucking disgusting.
Going out of their way to disseminate creators’ art in the specific way they have asked not to, then to go and gloat about it is peak disrespectful jerk behaviour, and seems commonplace among the pro-AI crowd.
To give an analogy, if someone cooked a noodle dish, shared it with the public and asked people to use a fork or chopsticks, it would be one thing for you to take some home and eat it with your hands on your own. Weird but whatever. But to go and post online about them eating with their hands or another way, mocking the wishes of the creator for any reason other than disability accommodation, that’s not illegal but it is hella disrespectful and hurtful.
I fully agree with your point.
But this is one of the worst analogies I’ve ever heard.
Thanks. Many hours later I’ve thought of better tweaks to it, like putting the meal into a blender and having it as a smoothie, but I didn’t feel like editing it since enough people had already seen it.
Where you lose me is the idea that one person coming up with a recipe means they can set any kind of limits in how others consume it. Even if they want to blend it into a smoothie or stick it in a fire until it’s nothing but char. They can be an asshole depending on how they do it, but I don’t think morality enters the equation at all.
this is exactly why dr. doofenshmirtz and professor farnsworth should have collaborated to invent the “slap poster in the face over the internet button”
shame is dead for the most part in pseudonymous spaces but people would be a lot more considerate if there were some actual consequences
BEHOLD, THE SLAPPERNATOR
To shreds, you say?
/me slaps MandarinDawnPoppy994 around a bit with a large trout
Tbh, that was bound to happen. At least the author is stupid enough to come forward and get in the prime spot for cyber bullying
If they’re really only distributing links too the fix is to simply rotate all the URLs. It would break shared links but maybe you can have a redirect layer the scrapers can’t follow in there
WTF
Greed and online superiority override shame now. These people are entitled and proud of what they do.
But, isn’t this just a demonstration that Cara isn’t doing what it’s built for? If one person, who is honest about what they did, is able to scrape all the art for $10, wouldn’t the major AI companies also be able to scrape it?
And not only would they not be honest about it, it seemed like this went completely unnoticed by Cara.
They claim they may have a way to remove Glaze and Nightshade, two of the tools protecting images hosted on Cara from being used as training data. Which means right now they don’t have a way to remove it, which means Cara is still working, which I’m not implying is going to forever be true nor am I particularly informed; I just read the whole post.
From reading a bit more through various linked posts, I don’t think they downloaded the artwork for the claimed $10, but scraped the site for a list of URLs from which to download it.
There are a number of references to the “dataset” (implied to just be this list) becoming useless if Cara were to implement stricter rate limiting.
Fuck, just change a directory name
Does CARA implement protections on scraping? Or is it meant to be a platform where even if scraped, the images are protected via Nightshade and other tech?
An individual being able to specifically target an Anti-AI site is different that crawlers being automated to do the same thing to every site ignoring robot.txt files etc.
So it took an individual to go and specific target this platform which I think means that CARA isn’t really breaking its promises so much as it just needs to continue to update the techniques it uses to protect the artworks housed there. Web security has always been a game of cat and mouse.
Cara uses third-party content moderation services from Hive (an AI company) to prevent AI-generated art from being uploaded onto the site.
Hahahahaha so this friendly™ Chinese platform basically feeds every uploaded image into an AI to determine if it’s AI.
Just self host your own personal blog/art or use a proper website and not that shitshow.
The idea I believe it to prevent your art from being scraped. Self-hosting Isn’t a solution
To keep my art from being scraped by AI, I only display it in a physical gallery. The gallery is equipped with AI-based automated machine gut turrets programmed to paste anyone that tries to take a photo of the art.
The problem is that you presumably want end users to see it, which means a remote machine must be able to download it, which means it inherently must be scrapable (since that’s just downloading and preserving it). You can make it take longer or be more annoying to accomplish, but you can’t actually truly stop it and keep the site usable.
Kind of like how the problem with DRM for video is that the end user can eventually watch it, which means barring all else you can at least point a camera at the screen to produce a copy.
I wanted to verify this. It was real but has been since removed and judging from the missing comments by the moderators nonetheless, so that’s a W. Then I looked through this community and here are some neat experiences I had:
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One post’s subject was a goober on social media saying “cannibalism is more justified than ai art”. I looked through all the comments - none of them even entertained the possibility of this being a joke.
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In fact it is very often that they just post some stupid anti-ai screenshot where the original post had like two impressions and title it the ai equivalent of ‘they are coming for our guns!’
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I sorted by Top/Year. First post was a random drawing someone made with their hand and said “i’m not good at prompting so I drew this with my hand”. My flabers have been gasted.
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It’s pretty weird because it’s like looking in a mirror in a way: their arguments are exactly the same as I thought they were* - and the way they are posting about us is sadly pretty similar to the way we are posting about them. This post included.
*And yeah, I think those arguments are terrible, but for some reason they don’t and that weirds me out how when presented with the same arguments people can just go in completely different directions.
So this was my shallow dive into a community that shall not be named on a platform that shall not be named. Thanks for coming to my TEDTalk.
CN: indirect mentions of transphobia
It’s always super interesting to see the way that people talk in an ideologically oriented subreddit such as this (though less so nowadays due to bots)
!One of the most interesting examples of this was back before the transphobia subreddit GenderCritical got banned. When I first heard of the sub, from it’s name, I thought that it would be like the exact opposite of what it actually is, like people who were critical of the entire construct of gender. Alas, it was a cess pool of hate. What I found super interesting though was that they did regular “Just no trans” threads, where they would ask people what their “just no trans” moment was. It was honestly absurd how many of the stories in these threads took the form of “I was abused by a cis man, and then struggled to get any justice against him because patriarchy often excuses these kinds of acts. Anyway, that’s why I hate trans women”. It made me realise how many of the people who identify as TERFs specifically are just traumatised women who feel so disempowered under the patriarchy that they feel comforted by the power they get from punching down at trans people. It’s fucking tragic, because our best strategy against systemic oppression is always intersectional solidarity, and when it comes to feminism specifically, trans people are situated uniquely well to be able to strengthen the cause.!<
You can learn a lot about people from how they speak when they’re amongst their own
Could you be more explicit about what you feel the takeaway is here?
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Weird that shitheads like this aren’t getting banned from reddit, don’t you think? Mention punching nazis, though…
Violently rip off nazis’s heads, and defecate down their neck.
I like not having to worry about catching a ban here.
You’ve already been added to the Tesseract blocklist.
Fyi, I’m kidding. I have no idea whether you’re on there or not
I feel pride that I didn’t even consider that to be a bannable phrase until you pointed it out
I got perma banned for saying “fuck trump and Obama” that was it, that was my entire comment.
A comment above said they went to check this thread and the user had been banned.
Well ok then.
Scrapped does not mean the image i usable for training? These images are posted with some layer to protect from training IIRC.
So this looks like the person is trying to pool GPU time. I wonder if this is a crypto bro baiting on AI idiots.
To clarify, I know even scrapping is illegal as per terms. I’m not defending this person.
