TL;DR: Due to being smaller and lighter, electric bikes and mopeds require significantly less energy to move themselves around than an electric car. The article starts with a headline about “oil demand” but then spends much of the rest of its length harping on consumer monetary costs instead. I could have said that in a lot fewer words. Actually, I just did.
Also, in SE Asia and other places where the primary mode of transport is a small motorbike, as it happens these small motorbikes actually pollute a lot for their displacement due to having basic uncomplicated engines, often not running very well, and lousy or absent emissions controls. ICE vehicles are also at their worst fuel consumption/distance traveled ratio when they’re idling or crawling around urban areas at low speed. Replacing these with electric versions just makes sense.
Full disclosure: I own a gas guzzling truck, a fuel efficient car, seven motorcycles, and an electric bicycle. I use different tools for different jobs, as appropriate. If you’re looking for a magic bullet, you will probably need it in a few different calibers.
I need to kill an elephant. What should I drive?
Your ancestors hunted the mammoth on foot with a rock tied to a stick. Use that.
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I mean, they hunted mammoths to extinction so, pretty fucking effective lol
I mean, we’re here, which means someone must have killed a mammoth.
But really they didn’t hunt them with rocks on sticks. They chased them toward a cliff with their friends waiting at the bottom to dispatch any that survived the fall. This is why there’s no more mammoths.
We didn’t just kill a mammoth, we killed all the mammoths.
Not true, a bunch survived until a few thousand years ago up north.
I refer you to my previous statement.
Ah, the Tremors method.
Tge mammoths are all dead too so they were effective.
They weren’t very good at living for eternity? And really, who would want to?
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A Sherman?
If you’re looking for a magic bullet, you will probably need it in a few different calibers.
That’s a clever way to put it and I like it
Out of your seven motorcycles, which one is used for which purpose?
I’ll bet you weren’t expecting to get an actual answer to this, but I’m going to give you one. (Spoiler: None of them are a Harley.)
First, I do use all of my bikes for commuting (the electric bicycle often, too, when the fancy strikes me) and usually ride a different one each day. They all get better mileage than my car and certainly better than my truck.
KLR650: Long distance touring and adventure rides, motocamping, hauling comically large objects that should not be transported by motorcycle.
Bashan BSR-250/Enforcer: I ostensibly bought this for my nephew to ride on adventure trips with me, but I also use it for tooling around town, light duty shopping, etc.
Honda VT750C/Shadow A.C.E.: Two up riding and touring, also good for making lots of obnoxious noise. My wife likes the passenger seat and sissy bar. Goes faster than the Vanvan, even with two people on it for long trips.
Yamha FZ6R: Dicking around on twisty roads. Irritating Tesla/M3/AMG/Corvette owners.
Orion/Nicot RXB250L: Playing in the dirt, at the motocross track, off road, doing wheelies, and narrow technical trails I probably shouldn’t try to manhandle the KLR down.
Honda CH50/Metropolitan: In town errands, shopping trips. It achieves ludicrous fuel economy and you can fit a lot of stuff under the seat. My wife rides this one more than I do.
Suzuki RV200/Vanvan: Bought for my wife to learn how to ride a “real” motorcycle, i.e. with a clutch and gears. She uses it for motocamping trips.
Relevant username, lol.
I used to have a DR650, and used it much like your KLR. It was getting tothe point where I had to fix it all the time, I had another weird little bike that I couldn’t get parts for which also needed help… I ended up selling both and buying one bike that I could just ride. I love riding, and love different bikes for different things, but I don’t like maintaining a fleet of stuff, keeping tags up to date on a fleet of bikes, so…
I love the little RV! Used to have a GSF 400. Those small suzukis are so fun
TLDR: they’re all for driving
As opposed to what, exactly? Eating?
Well you tried to spin it like they’re each a unique tool serving a special purpose that you need fulfilled.
But really you’re just a guy who likes motorcycles.
Yes? That’s how it works.
You can draw a triangle and label the points “highway,” “dirt,” and “urban” and any bike you pick will describe a dot in one position on that triangle and never ever touch all three points at the same time.
All vehicles are for the purposes of transportation (or recreation), just possibly for moving different types of things across different terrain with different strengths and weaknesses. You’re trying to split a hair that doesn’t need to be split as if it’s some kind of “gotcha” that everyone in the world knows is irrelevant except you.
Driving on dirt isn’t exactly a special purpose that you need fulfilled. Most people live their lives just fine with zero motorcycles, and here you are with seven trying to tell us you need them all.
Over consumption is probably worse for the environment than petrol powered cars
If you’re looking for a magic bullet, you will probably need it in a few different calibers.
This is an excellent phrase and I’m going to have to start using it
Silver buckshot is how I describe it
What do you think about the impact of owning so many vehicles?
Zlich. Because – stay with me here – I can only operate one of them at a time.
“BuT tHe PrOdUcTiOn ImPacT!!!”
I bought all but two of them used. That ship sailed before I even swung a leg over.
Buying second hand definitely reduced the impact. But it still creates a demand for second-hand that motivates people/companies to buy more new products because they know they can easily sell it back.
This article is vastly understating the potential benefits of e-bikes. Like-for-like replacements for car trips are only the tip of the iceberg; the real benefit of e-bikes is that the more people that use them, the less car parking we need. That means we can put back all those buildings we destroyed when we razed our cities for the car.
Fuck more buildings…make parking lots into parks and green spaces
Why not both? More housing and more parks. Win win.
We need more lanes. Just one more lane and we’ll be done with trafic, I swear!1!!one!1!1!
that’s kind of assumed to happen if you packed people into tighter and tighter densities
Don’t forget you can ride a mile or two to the train station and get around like that.
Even if you have a bike in town and one at home. Two bikes are cheaper than 1 car and more space efficient.
If everyone had an ebike, getting on and off the train would be a complete pain in the ass. I guess if there were lock boxes it might be OK, but hundreds of people trying to get their bike on a train would be a nightmare
Many urban-suburban trains, and even some regional trains, have entire cars dedicated for bicycles, with no (or only few) seats. This is very scalable on multiple scales, when the demand is growing:
- Adding more bicycle cars to existing bike-friendly trains 🏩🚞🚃🚃🚃🚃🏫
- Adding more bike-friendly trains to existing lines 🚆🚆🚉🚊🚇🚇
- Building new well-placed bike-friendly stations on existing lines 🏢🏪🚵♂️🚵♀️🚈
- Adding more passenger railway lines to existing rail networks. 🛤️🛤️🛤️🛤️🛤️
There are definitely scaling limits for bike on trains, 1 bike takes up the space and manoeuvre room that could fit 3 or 4 people. Bike to station, leave bike there, use (ad hoc rental) other bike at destination is clearly a lot more scalable than filling trains with bikes.
1 bike takes up the space and manoeuvre room that could fit 3 or 4 people.
I’d say two bikes in a well-designed alternating rack along the wall takes up about the same space as two seats beside each other. Also, some people will stand along the bikes if their train ride is short, taking up less space than a seat. My estimate would be that 1 person + 1 bike ≈ 1,75 seats on average.
Beside that, I think you have a valid point in that a big part of the solution is locally available micromobility options, but I don’t think bike-friendly trains wouldn’t be a part of the solution too, since people will probably still want to own bikes, scooters etc. in the future. I, at least, like owning things that make my life easier.
I’ve done the bike-on-train thing many times and in many countries. The issue isn’t just the space the bike needs on the train itself, it’s the space the person needs to be able to get a bike on board without blocking the path and the infrastructurerequired to get the bike right next to the train. Trains fit for many bikes need wider doors, more doors (that costs seats), alignment between platform and train becomes even more important, that the platforms are very accessible too (there is often, if you’re lucky, 1 elevator to the platform that fits 1 or 2 bikes at a time, that elevator gets jammed up and competes with wheelchairs and childstrollers and large suitcases very quickly) et cetera. Many smaller stations still have 0 elevators of ramps, only stairs. The only somewhat convenient bike on a train is the foldable bike, but even that creates the hassle described, tho less. I try to avoid taking my own bike on a train (and I think taking your own is usually too cheap compared to a person-ticket and the hassle taking the bike creates).
Anyhow, I think 1 person + 1 bike = 1,75 seats is underestimating it a lot.
K but… what’s up with the emoji?
Dunno, had fun 🤸♂️
I did the math once for my own commute, on my e-bike and with my electric car, and found that while the electric car uses only 20% of the energy that an average gas-powered car would, the bike uses just 1%. My bike, on my route (both directions averaged together) got 2,200 mpge.
Miles per gallon energy? What’s that abbreviation?
Just another example of how Americans will use anything but metric (we do use metric sometimes, I know, it’s just a meme). We could easily measure it in Wh/km, but then we would also have to change how we measure gasoline cars if we want people to make direct comparisons. But, since we sell gas by the gallon, we would also have to change how gas is sold. When the EPA first came up with mpge I thought it was stupid (we don’t buy electricity by the gallon!), but I’ve come around to the convenience of being able to easily compare the two types of fuel. The EPA assumes 1 gallon of gas to contain 33.7 kWh of energy.
Maybe we should get everyone to switch to Joules for measuring, buying, and selling gasoline and electricity?
It’s a pretty flawed comparison, though. It assumes a certain amount of fossil fuels being burned at the power plant that’s feeding your electric car. That’s a number that varies a lot between regions, and is bound to change as more and more renewables are spun up. Putting solar panels on your home throws the whole comparison out. It’s nearly useless.
Isn’t the point for the consumer to measure their cost? Not the overall efficiency of the production and distribution for each source of fuel?
Like I buy X gallons per month of gas because my car gets 20 mpg and I dive Y miles. If this electric car uses Z amount of electricity and I still drive Y miles, I’ll save ß dollars.
It is not really possible for the consumer to calculate their respective mpge, since your specific utlities power mix will differ region by region.
That’s the idea, but it doesn’t actually do that. Even if it did, the cost would be variable by region, so it’s still imperfect.
To be fair, even in metric countries in Europe, they use imperial occasionally. This is the case for wheel sizes and display sizes, both usually measured in inches.
Don’t tell them. Once you start looking for exceptions to “use metric for everything”, you’ll find one in every country, and people get really angry when you point this out. As if not being 100% metric is some kind of moral failing.
Car tire sizing is a bizarre, design-by-committee thing, though. Diameter is in inches, width is in mm, and sidewall width is a percentage of the width. Why?
You’re using kWh instead of Joules in your comment. :P
Joules represent a very small amount of energy. We probably want kWh or kJ. Although, I think just places in the US already use kWh for electricity?
It’s not complicated. Mpge allows you to compare energy efficiency vs internal combustion cars. They also provide kWh/100 mi, which allows you to calculate actual cost of operation, depending on how much you pay for a kWh.
The E is for Equivalent. It’s how “fuel” efficiency is discussed when referring to non liquid fuel vehicles.
Gotcha, thanks.
Yup. There’s a Wikipedia page listing all the modes of transportation and their efficiency. Electric bikes are just about the most energy efficient way to transport humans.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport
This is a weird definition they’re using, and it doesn’t encompass the whole box. An electric vehicle might be more efficient on a distance per unit energy basis, but it’s less efficient on a total energy basis because we lose some of the energy in the electrification.
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My only problem with ebikes is there’s no chance in hell I’m consistently driving on the road with cars.
With how convenient these are, I hope there’s more push to add protected bike lanes in road heavy places to increase adoption.
Looks like your problem is not with ebikes, but your city’s infrastructure.
It is, and we have some of the best in the country at that. It’s just takes a long time to make a place meant for cars into meant for bikes
We aren’t no Netherlands.
Get an electric scooter, Vespa size. It’s super convenient.
To clarify - I’m not going on the road in anything but a car
Protected lanes or paths only for me on any form of bike/scooter
So you are afraid of cars so you take your own car… I fully understand that but it is all the problem.
We have to constantly remind drivers that road are for everyone, and not only to go full speed.
Here they painted bikes on roads and put speed limit at 30kmh so it is better, drivers seems more conscious, but we still see too much distracted people that don’t realize they can easily kill someone just by not looking constantly at the road.
I’m a bit in the same situation. I can a lot with my bike but it’s dangerous at times, especially with my kids in the back. People need to go to places and unfortunately, everything we built for the last 70years were almost just for cars.
There’s a need for more bike lanes and bus/tramways/métro.
Even with more bike lanes, we need better visibility at points where bike lanes intersect with the roadway to better alert both the car and biker to the danger. They’ve been working on painting those areas all green on the road here, but there’s a lot of spots to do.
E.g bike lane intersecting an entrance to a parking lot
There are way too many cyclist accidents here, it’s not worth it. Some of the accidents even happen at the special bike crossings because of bad drivers.
And scooters just like motorcycles are death traps.
Edit: nearly everyone I know who’s commuted to work on a bike has been hit by a car at some point. Not all city speed hits, some just taps. And the stories of how shitty the drivers are to them on the road is astounding.
I work remote now, but my last job was only 20mins away, but I pretty much had to use the highway. Other routes just made the trip too long, so I can’t even imagine commuting in a bike to that job.
Chicken :-)
Whaaaaat? You mean electric last-mile micromobility cuts down on emissions in a significant way, just like people had been saying for years? Who would have thought?
Car-brain finds small electric vehicles are more efficient, in shocking study.
… but will instantly fabricate reasons why the car will be needed at least 5 times a day anyway.
But what if it … gasp … RAINS?
When I was younger and more invincible around 2005, I bought one of these crappy Ebay engine kits for a bicycle. One thing I noticed is that it wasn’t really any slower from home to work than a car, because I could go around traffic. An E-bike would have been great. A lot of them get around on 500 watt or 750 watt motors, which is considerably smaller than an electric car’s motor.
I’d have one now, but it’s hard to ride one when I have to carry a kid with me most places.
I’d have one now, but it’s hard to ride one when I have to carry a kid with me most places.
I got an e-bike because I needed to carry a kid (actually, two) around with me. FYI, cargo bikes are a thing:
There is no way the kids sitting on the back of the bike in that picture are safe…
No less safe than wheeling a kid around in a little red wagon or letting them ride their own bicycle.
Little Red wagons generally don’t travel at 20mph in the street with cars going even faster. That kid in the photo can barely hold herself upright. One little wiggle or unexpected turn and she’ll slip right through those bars and under an SUV.
Seriously, you might as well just put your kid in to one of these.
Oh no, look at all the super dangerous people biking with kids on them.
https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?si=qlcN0Y9YrykPIlPe
People really don’t fall off of bike seats easily. Maybe you should try biking.
Literally millions of people have bought e-bikes specifically to carry kids. I own one, and my kid loves riding on the back. I have never heard of a kid falling off of one either.
Radbikes even makes a bicycle specifically designed to carry children on the back (the radwagon) - and so does Extracycle, Trek, Lectric, Yuba and half a dozen or so other long tail e-bike brands.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/rQhzEnWCgHA?si=qlcN0Y9YrykPIlPe
https://piped.video/-ypwGlE-f88?si=l0RGbouB6efBHAZs
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Maybe you should try biking.
You wanna compare Strava profiles Big Boy?
My issue isn’t with carrying kids on the back of bikes. It can and is done safely. My issue is with what is happening in this specific picture, and even more specifically with the smallest child.
Shame on you for not being willing to sacrifice your children for the cause! Go back to truth social where you belong!
/s of course
If you want a pissing competition, I’ve spent the last 25 years biking about 10 miles each way for work. Plus a couple of trips to the coast every year, so that’s about a hundred miles each way.
I don’t even own a road bike.
Yeah, but the picture above has them sat in a luggage rack.
it’s only unsafe because of all the cars. aside from that, whats’ the danger, they might fall out?
it’s only unsafe because of all the cars. aside from that, whats’ the danger…
Swimming in a pool of razor blades is only unsafe because of all the razor blades. Aside from that, what’s the danger?
…they might fall out?
Yes
car dominance is literally a conspiracy by big oil to make us dependent, it is in no way natural.
Cars exist, you can’t just ignore them. They’ll run you over whether you believe in them or not
Then we should burn them
Nah this is completely right though. Soon as she stops those two kids are gonna bonk heads together, the smaller one needs a bike seat at the very least, and the toddler probably needs one as well. You could still do that with a bike like this, so it doesn’t discount the point entirely, but the image itself is a pretty stupidly conceived piece of work.
It will never not be funny to me how scared some people are of any transportation that’s not a car.
there are so many people who have both no cognitive ability to imagine something they haven’t personally experienced or is the norm and have never gotten anywhere any other way but a car.
it’s funny to because compared to literally anything but a motorcycle cars are hella dangerous, and the deaths from all the other modes except airplanes are from getting hit by a car
It’s fun how the preview image for the article has two kids being carried around. But I can understand if you don’t see that as safe in your area, etc.
My daughter would absolutely not ride in that.
Have you ever put your kid on a bike? How would you know?
Yes. For context, she’s 4 and very skittish. I have a burley trailer for my bike I got in the hopes that we could ride together. I only successfully got her in it once for a gentle ride around the park. She screamed in terror the entire time. She does, however, love taking public trans.
I have both am ev and an ebike, and a 7 mile commute.
Driving takes between 20 minutes and an hour and a half. Biking takes 45 minutes no matter what.
Car uses about 25x more energy though and parking is around $20/day.
I should add my son much prefers the bike.
I love my Bafang too but be careful of regulation depending on your country, an e-bike is 250W so of you put a more powerful motor you get in the moped category with different rules (helmet, back mirror, insurance…)
Goddamn I love my ebike. It’s still very much a bike, but it changes the equation. I can ride a nice big heavy comfortable cruising frame, pull my kid in a trailer bike, get up steep hills that would otherwise stop me, and go 4x as far before I’m tired. It is just a total game changer. I’ve rediscovered the joy of riding my bike like I haven’t known it since college. I’m older and creakier than ever but my bike enjoyment hasn’t diminished - it has increased.
Same! I live on the top of a big hill, so leaving my house on a bike was never the issue, but I always dreaded the ride home. Now I own an ebike and I regularly use it to go into town for groceries. In fact, I just added a second basket so I can buy three full bags of groceries in one trip. I find myself actually looking forward to errands now.
Also, it keeps you in shape!
Yes! And I’m pretty lazy about exercise so having the “help me” button there keeps me from avoiding the bike.
First and foremost, people can afford them.
Second, they are more fun and you get to avoid all the traffic.
Third, cheap to run, no need to pay insurance, taxes, parking.
Fourth, anyone can ride it even children, no drivers license needed.
And so on…
In Norway, insurance is mandatory. And you have to be over 13 (or something like this). But in general, I agree with you.
Great. All technologies that bring down CO2 emissions are needed.
As long as people get rid of their dino juice cars, who cares.
Yeah, right. And make 15 tonns of co2 extra, that would not have been needed when filling up the “Dino juice” car with “techno juice” that has 0% CO2.
But, we’ve lost the battle anyway already, so who cares.
Oh I see, you thinking alterative fuels to keep legacy car going. Problem is, those are biofuels and use a lot of land to grow and end up even more expensive than dino juice.
EV running costs is way cheaper and their up front costs is coming down fast. They use slightly more CO2e to make, but way way less to run. Plus those of us lucky enough to have drives can just charge at home, which is great. There does need to better infrastructure for those without drives.
Bingo bongo. There are also tons of greenhouse gases + other pollution associated with cars that are not the gas they burn to drive. Road infrastructure is a big one.
Ties are a problem that we are just beginning to understand. But we can replace and keep the car.
I mean don’t get me wrong, I’d love good public transport instead. When it’s good, people use it instead. When I go to a decent (European) city I want to ditch the car a.s.a.p as it’s just a hamper.
I also think one aspect that keeps getting omitted from the conversation are exhaust fumes.
We know that they are toxic and a common cause of any number of cardio-vascular and other diseases, including straight up turning you into a god damned moron. Yet it’s perfectly accepted that we fill every cubic centimeter of our cities with them, and expect everyone to breathe in the noxious gasses every day of our lives.
I don’t want to inhale your exhaust fumes, I don’t want to die faster and under greater pain just because you can’t be arsed to bike instead of driving a car.
I don’t think the toxic fumes are left out of the conversation. It’s horrifying round schools at drop off or pick up. In decades to come we’ll look back in amazement what was acceptable.
Oh really? Maybe not moving 2,5 tons of metal and battery isnt a good idea? Maybe bikes were always a better mode of transport? I have a feeling that this was pretty obvious.
The article talks about electric bikes, not normal ones. That’s e-bikes, or rather what I suspect that they are peddling as a newsertainment article: e-scooters.
until it is raining and winter
A fully enclosed velomobile would probably do the job, but I don’t think it’s legal anywhere in Europe :(
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Watched a YouTube about electric vs gas scooters in Taiwan 🇹🇼. Apparently it’s like 6 scooters for every 10 people, crazy!
But the uptake of electric scooters wasn’t as much as they thought, but a lot of complaints were around “cost”, “parking” and “weight”
Sounds like an electric bicycle would solve all those issues over an electric scooter 🛵
Especially for the poorer, high 2 wheel usage nations, like Vietnam or India.
Just have to pedal a bit! 😉
I think big cars and SUV should be banned.everyone should use a moped or a bike but 9-5s pretending to be rich will hate it.
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SUVs have lower cargo capacity than more fuel efficient vans, and often even less than cars like old Foresters. They 100% serve no purpose, but people have been tricked in to believing this lie about cargo capacity.
Even trucks today have lower cargo capacity than vans, while also having worse fuel efficiency.
But lets for s second assume this lie is true. Why not require a commercial license for any vehicle built on a truck frame? Prove you need it and you could get an exception.
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How about just banning fossile fuels…?
Doesn’t solve Stupid Ugly Vehicle problem
That’s true.
I have heard this for years now. This all fine. I also have an E-Bike. I really love using it. But I live in central Europe. Weather is really shitty here from October-March. I use my car then. And no, clothing for biking in bad weather is not an option for me. I really can’t be bothered to change clothes on my job. I just won’t do that.
And the issue is where? You can just fuel up your car with co2 neutral fuel (like many Europeans already do with HVO100 Diesel in Sweden, the Netherlands and many other countries) and do the rest with your ebike. You probably dropped your co2 footprint to less than 5 tonns. The fact that HVO100 Diesel right now is ~30 cents more expensive doesn’t matter anymore. B33 gasoline is coming and 2025 it’s expected to be ramped up to 100% sustainable.
And compared to a BEV that needs more than 10-15 tonns to be even produced, just driving an older or cheaper car longer still makes it less co2 overall.
shameless plug [email protected]
I really can’t be bothered to change clothes on my job. I just won’t do that
I mean… you do you, but that gear generally amounts to a jacket, pants that go OVER your pants and different shoes. You’re just fucking lazy. Own it
Yup. I invested in rain pants and a jacket, all I need now are shoe coverings. Get to work, strip it all off in 30 secs and put it in a waterproof bag. It’s just a matter of adjusting expectations and habits.
To me it’s way less complicated than driving. I don’t have to worry about gas, traffic, parking, maintenance, break downs, and the stress of driving in the rain trying not to kill anyone. I understand why people are hesitant, but I think a lot of people just need to suck it up and give it a shot.
Also, public transportation is just straight up better than both driving/cycling when done right.
I went to dedicated rain/winter shoes and it was much better than overshoe booties.
You’re just fucking lazy.
Absolutely. Is there any context in which you can “I can’t be bothered with…” interpret as anything else as lazy? But so what? I will not ride my bike in shitty weather. And most people will do the same thing.
You can also do you, but you kind of lose any sort of moral high ground in this argument by insisting that others solve the problem for you when you can’t even do the bare fucking minimum
So… I go to work by e-bike 8 out of 12 months. Whenever I take my car, I take my BEV (MG4) that I charge with electricity from renewable sources.
And you? What do you actually do for the environment?
If you want to play the upstreaming game, where did the rare earth metals in your electric car come from?
Electric cars are here to save the car industry, not the environment.
Let’s stay on topic: Environment. Human rights is a whole nother can of worms. What do you think the supply chain of whatever device you are using for lemmee right now looks like?
Back to environment: What are you doing for the environment except for judging others: I drive a car that has a very low carbon footprint regarding its whole lifespan. Also I ride to work on an E-Bike 8 out of 12 months. What are you doing?
Love to see this!
On a related note: Feel free to stop by [email protected]
Ebikes need secure destination parking or they lose usefulness
Also safety. In my area the bike lanes are just paint and some streets don’t have sidewalks.
I know drivers are idiots but in my area bikes are supposed to ride on the streets. Could get a ticket for being in the sidewalk.
Same where I live, too. But I ride on the sidewalk anyway. No one has ever said anything about it in decades and I’d rather not get killed.
i just dont understand how usa and europe still has this super high bike thievery
Great income disparity, and the bikes are worth thousands, so valuable targets.
