“I’m just asking questions” being used as an excuse to host an unbalanced number of individuals purporting one specific worldview
Toxic masculinity posing as intellectualism
He is extremely popular with one particular demographic. That demographic tends to share the toxic masculinity and the Dunning-Kruger-fueled belief that they can be experts at everything from the armchair.
Speaking of toxic masculinity, I remember Joe Rogan during Covid saying that he decided to stop masking and isolating because it made him “feel like a pussy” IIRC.
It’s weird to me because in my view, a strong person doesn’t care what other people think of them. Rogan’s actions just seem extraordinarily cowardly and weak to me.
Like, he needed to eat elk meat to feel like a man? I understand we all have negative thoughts like that, but to be compelled to act out of your own fears doesn’t strike me as masculine in the least.
Is that a part of toxic masculinity? That it’s centered around fear of judgment and a low sense of self worth? That they feel a need to project an image that’s exactly the opposite of how they really feel?
Because if so, then it seems like even the slightest bit of critical thinking ability would easily steer men clear of it.
One fairly reliable test to find out if a man (or woman) harbors some toxic masculinity - ask them about vegetarianism or veganism.
Few things will have a certain type spewing forth some of the most ridiculously asinine and sexist things like veg_n diets, LOL. Things like “soy boy” and silly discussions about how “men are inherently hunters” and lots of bro science about protein.
So yeah: if he leaned on the elk meat as something a real man needs to do…not surprising.
I’m not vegan. It’s absolutely a sustainable diet, however : I know several vegans that have been vegan for years; in some cases for decades. Personally, I’ve been mostly plant-based (100% vegetarian, but don’t eat much dairy and eggs, while I don’t take pains to avoid them, either) for over two decades.
In any case, I’m not sure why omnivores as I’m describing feel the need to disagree with vegans/vegetarians. The kind of thing I’m talking about is how their toxic masculinity is triggered - it seems to challenge the very core of their being to even know that vegan/vegetarians exist and without their permission, LOL. They seem especially triggered by men not eating meat.
I’ll be honest, that’s fair enough.
It’s not really any of my business if another person is vegan, as long as they’re not trying to shame me into abandoning meat.
It is a little sus that they get mad at someone eating something that isn’t a “beeg juicy steak”, like they’re Mr. Pottsdam or something.
It’s not really any of my business if another person is vegan, as long as they’re not trying to shame me into abandoning meat.
^ Probably the right position in both directions. I don’t really do any advocacy or even talk about it around omnivores as a general rule. About the most I’ve discussed it is online and only just to note my experiences. I don’t think running around trying to proselytize and shame others over their chosen diet is all that useful. It’s more annoying than it is effective. Some vegan/vegetarians, especially if they’ve just adopted the diet about five minutes ago, act like born-again xtians in many aspects and it is insufferable in my view. I’ve definitely had my run-ins with performative vegans or vegetarians and it’s quite off-putting.
Someone I knew kind of casually from work-related things was a much older guy who had been a vegetarian since the 60s and I had observed him over many years (as an omnivore) just quietly not eating meat. He would answer questions when asked, but was not out to scold and lecture or even really talk about his diet at all otherwise. I think he set a great example.
It is a little sus that they get mad at someone eating something that isn’t a “beeg juicy steak”, like they’re Mr. Pottsdam or something.
Yeah, this. Most of the conversations that I have had are usually from omnivores with constant passive-aggressive remarks or unwanted dissertations and what-if scenarios. I find it rather baffling. Just the act of eating and not having meat on the plate really seems to provoke a certain kind of omnivore.
In general, if someone asks about it in good faith, I’ll give what my experience was like and what our family tends to eat, etc. Beyond that, I’m not out there to be the vanguard of plant-based eating, LOL.
Some vegan/vegetarians, especially if they’ve just adopted the diet about five minutes ago, act like born-again xtians in many aspects and it is insufferable in my view
I find those people tend to be insufferable about anything, their identity isn’t being vegan or crossfit or cycling or whatever, their identity is being an insufferable prick, and the cause-du-jour is simply their outlet.
It’s all performative. Every ounce of it. Goth kids don’t put as much effort into appearance. Their version of masculinity is being loud, obnoxious and putting themselves above others. It’s a dentist on a $30,000 Harley going 15mph while making 160 decibels, wearing $200 T-shirts and $500 jeans to mimic the hard-earned look of a working man. It’s weak, fearful men spouting off constantly about the second amendment and their right to defend their families but wouldn’t touch a weapon if it didn’t look tacticool enough. Esthetics over everything. They’re not brave enough to be original in thinking or appearance. Not strong enough to be the rock of servitude that holds people together in hard times. The embodiment of paper tigers.
Because if so, then it seems like even the slightest bit of critical thinking ability would easily steer men clear of it.
Absolutely correct, in my view. “Fear of judgment and a low sense of self worth” is also spot on.
Rogan gave national voice to plenty of people who regularly used the term “snowflake” to describe what they saw as weak people who like to complain (I’m speaking from memory here and generalizing; Rogan probably has also used this term himself, but I’m not searching transcripts, so take all this with a grain of salt). By this logic, a “snowflake” is someone who is perceived as weak because they let so much affect them emotionally.
But these toxic men are “snowflakes” in every sense of the term. They go on Joe Rogan to complain about trans people, or gay rights, or “the war on Christmas”, or the perceived persecution of “alpha males”, or any number of other issues. Some guests are only famous because they complain about such things.
So what is the difference between a toxic “alpha male” on Joe Rogan and one of the “snowflakes” they like to complain about? Absolutely nothing, except that the toxic men believe that anger doesn’t count as an emotion, so their insecurity allows them to show it regularly.
(And to be clear, there is nothing wrong with showing emotion or caring deeply about something – that’s not a point I’m trying to make)
The difference is that Beck and Carlson are actually more straightforward with regards to how they lean. Rogan always suggests he’s a centrist, sometimes even suggesting he is apolitical, which is patently false.
What sparked that was Glenn Beck asking the first sitting Muslim member of Congress, Keith Ellison: “Now, I wouldn’t say this, but some of my listeners might like to ask you: ‘Are you working for our enemies?’”.
Bear in mind that this was in a time when politicians were not openly working for Russia, so the idea of asking a sitting member of the House of Representatives if he was “working for our enemies” was galling. But it was Beck’s technique of “Oh, I’m not saying, this, rather, ‘it is being said by some unspecified people’” to weasel out of it being him saying it.
That said, I have avoided Rogan completely, so cannot speak directly to his particular brand of bullshit.
It’s not the question asked. It’s the first. Like hell have rfk on to spout nonsense about vaccines (made up example) and say he’s just looking at all views, just asking questions.
Well, if you have questions, ask a scientist that has studied it, not someone with a brain worm that directly caused children’s deaths due to misleading campaigns against vaccines on the Pacific islands.
Asking a terf on to talk about gender identity. Climate change deniers to talk about climate change. Asking trump on to talk about anything. It’s a way to muddy the waters about who is an expert while also making it unclear as to what the evidence says.
I work with a kid who I know listens to JRE often. He’s kind and very smart. What I’ve found is that he lacks confidence and prefers not to speak even when he thinks he has the right answer, for fear of being wrong. He’s depressed, and around this time last year checked himself into a hospital for a week. I know he recently started going to church, likely to try and find answers and support. He seems to mean well. All this to say, listeners of JRE may not be stupid or bad people. Some of them, a lot of them, I’d be willing the guess, are confused young men being brought to bad conclusions because they sound like answers and are wrapped with an “I’m just asking questions,” bow.
Yes, I agree with that about confused young men. However, at the end of the day, if JRE turns them into toxic men, then they’re still just toxic men.
I would hope that doesn’t happen. In general I think we as a society need to be kinder to these confused young men before they take that path. It’s a more difficult conversation to have and the solution is not very clear.
Either way, JRE is dangerous because it offers propagandistic suppositions as answers to people with big questions.
In general I think we as a society need to be kinder to these confused young men before they take that path. It’s a more difficult conversation to have and the solution is not very clear.
I agree, and I’ll come right out and say it. Real, truly meant words of praise, appreciation, affection, and pride – where appropriate – go a LONG way toward turning that shit around. If you have the opportunity to work with younger people, never miss a chance to give them something positive and truthful by way of observation and praise. You have no idea how long it’s been, if ever, that they’ve been made to feel valued.
Hell, I wouldn’t even take a bet on how long it’s been since YOU were made to feel valued. Even those we assume are the most popular among us can be walking in emotional deserts, because we’ve collectively stripped society of everything but the most superficial shows of value.
While this is true for people of all genders, it is exceptionally true for young men. Find ways to praise and even mentor, if you can. I honestly believe that if every father told his male child at least once how much he loved him, instead of using that kid as a personal mirror at which to strike at his own insecurities, this world would be a markedly different place.
I had an uncle that learned this the hard way. He grew up in hell, which made him a cold hardass who could be absolutely vicious. Back in his day (the 50s) you had to get married, so he did and had a few children, but he was a complete bastard. And he joined the Army too, so he had that reinforcement going for him at work, which he of course brought home.
And then something changed for him. He had some kind of epiphany back in the 80s. I forget what it was. It wasn’t just religion, but something flipped the switch in regard to what he was doing to everyone around him. And in response he decided that he was going to tell everyone just how much he cared about them. His wife was like whatever, his own adult children were wary as hell, and even his friends were like okay but don’t hug me. Because he was doing it from a very genuine place, over time he actually won a lot of people around. Even (eventually) his own family, to whom he apologized and gave room to confront him over his prior shitty behavior. Amends were quietly made. And when he died his funeral was so packed there were lines around the block: none of us ever knew he even had that many friends, and friends they were, lining up to speak one after the other about what he’d done for them in his life.
His change was real. And he didn’t do much, he just decided he didn’t care if it made him feel or look like a fool and started telling people how much he really did care for them, and stopped lying his way through what hurt.
I’d prove it with an obituary if it wouldn’t dox me, but yeah. Start there. People treat young men in terms of what’s wrong with them; if you want to make a difference, start seeing what’s right with them.
Rogan is a great example of a few things:
The Dunning-Kruger effect
“I’m just asking questions” being used as an excuse to host an unbalanced number of individuals purporting one specific worldview
Toxic masculinity posing as intellectualism
He is extremely popular with one particular demographic. That demographic tends to share the toxic masculinity and the Dunning-Kruger-fueled belief that they can be experts at everything from the armchair.
He’s a Kremlin asset. You’ll notice he’s had half the Epstein files as guests. I don’t think that’s a coincidence.
Is he getting the same money that Benny Johnson is getting?
Though Joe Rogan doesn’t have the sudden influx of gay rumors like Benny does, LOL.
Speaking of toxic masculinity, I remember Joe Rogan during Covid saying that he decided to stop masking and isolating because it made him “feel like a pussy” IIRC.
It’s weird to me because in my view, a strong person doesn’t care what other people think of them. Rogan’s actions just seem extraordinarily cowardly and weak to me.
Like, he needed to eat elk meat to feel like a man? I understand we all have negative thoughts like that, but to be compelled to act out of your own fears doesn’t strike me as masculine in the least.
Is that a part of toxic masculinity? That it’s centered around fear of judgment and a low sense of self worth? That they feel a need to project an image that’s exactly the opposite of how they really feel?
Because if so, then it seems like even the slightest bit of critical thinking ability would easily steer men clear of it.
One fairly reliable test to find out if a man (or woman) harbors some toxic masculinity - ask them about vegetarianism or veganism.
Few things will have a certain type spewing forth some of the most ridiculously asinine and sexist things like veg_n diets, LOL. Things like “soy boy” and silly discussions about how “men are inherently hunters” and lots of bro science about protein.
So yeah: if he leaned on the elk meat as something a real man needs to do…not surprising.
No there are valid reasons to disagree with vegans.
It literally isn’t a sustainable diet without dozens of supplements. If you’re vegan I really hope you’re taking your B12.
I’m not vegan. It’s absolutely a sustainable diet, however : I know several vegans that have been vegan for years; in some cases for decades. Personally, I’ve been mostly plant-based (100% vegetarian, but don’t eat much dairy and eggs, while I don’t take pains to avoid them, either) for over two decades.
In any case, I’m not sure why omnivores as I’m describing feel the need to disagree with vegans/vegetarians. The kind of thing I’m talking about is how their toxic masculinity is triggered - it seems to challenge the very core of their being to even know that vegan/vegetarians exist and without their permission, LOL. They seem especially triggered by men not eating meat.
I’ll be honest, that’s fair enough. It’s not really any of my business if another person is vegan, as long as they’re not trying to shame me into abandoning meat.
It is a little sus that they get mad at someone eating something that isn’t a “beeg juicy steak”, like they’re Mr. Pottsdam or something.
^ Probably the right position in both directions. I don’t really do any advocacy or even talk about it around omnivores as a general rule. About the most I’ve discussed it is online and only just to note my experiences. I don’t think running around trying to proselytize and shame others over their chosen diet is all that useful. It’s more annoying than it is effective. Some vegan/vegetarians, especially if they’ve just adopted the diet about five minutes ago, act like born-again xtians in many aspects and it is insufferable in my view. I’ve definitely had my run-ins with performative vegans or vegetarians and it’s quite off-putting.
Someone I knew kind of casually from work-related things was a much older guy who had been a vegetarian since the 60s and I had observed him over many years (as an omnivore) just quietly not eating meat. He would answer questions when asked, but was not out to scold and lecture or even really talk about his diet at all otherwise. I think he set a great example.
Yeah, this. Most of the conversations that I have had are usually from omnivores with constant passive-aggressive remarks or unwanted dissertations and what-if scenarios. I find it rather baffling. Just the act of eating and not having meat on the plate really seems to provoke a certain kind of omnivore.
In general, if someone asks about it in good faith, I’ll give what my experience was like and what our family tends to eat, etc. Beyond that, I’m not out there to be the vanguard of plant-based eating, LOL.
I find those people tend to be insufferable about anything, their identity isn’t being vegan or crossfit or cycling or whatever, their identity is being an insufferable prick, and the cause-du-jour is simply their outlet.
Every element of the whole toxic masculinity influencer thing is just an expression of weakness and insecurity framed as “manliness”.
It’s all performative. Every ounce of it. Goth kids don’t put as much effort into appearance. Their version of masculinity is being loud, obnoxious and putting themselves above others. It’s a dentist on a $30,000 Harley going 15mph while making 160 decibels, wearing $200 T-shirts and $500 jeans to mimic the hard-earned look of a working man. It’s weak, fearful men spouting off constantly about the second amendment and their right to defend their families but wouldn’t touch a weapon if it didn’t look tacticool enough. Esthetics over everything. They’re not brave enough to be original in thinking or appearance. Not strong enough to be the rock of servitude that holds people together in hard times. The embodiment of paper tigers.
https://truthout.org/articles/texas-gop-declares-no-more-teaching-of-critical-thinking-skills-in-texas-public-schools/
Makes sense considedering critical thinkers don’t believe in God and that’s just not the Texas way…
Absolutely correct, in my view. “Fear of judgment and a low sense of self worth” is also spot on.
Rogan gave national voice to plenty of people who regularly used the term “snowflake” to describe what they saw as weak people who like to complain (I’m speaking from memory here and generalizing; Rogan probably has also used this term himself, but I’m not searching transcripts, so take all this with a grain of salt). By this logic, a “snowflake” is someone who is perceived as weak because they let so much affect them emotionally.
But these toxic men are “snowflakes” in every sense of the term. They go on Joe Rogan to complain about trans people, or gay rights, or “the war on Christmas”, or the perceived persecution of “alpha males”, or any number of other issues. Some guests are only famous because they complain about such things.
So what is the difference between a toxic “alpha male” on Joe Rogan and one of the “snowflakes” they like to complain about? Absolutely nothing, except that the toxic men believe that anger doesn’t count as an emotion, so their insecurity allows them to show it regularly.
(And to be clear, there is nothing wrong with showing emotion or caring deeply about something – that’s not a point I’m trying to make)
For what it’s worth, to your clarification at the end, after reading I in no way thought you were talking bad about showing emotions.
Thanks. I like to be extra careful.
Glenn Beck was (is?) big on that one too.
Yes, and Tucker Carlson. It’s kind of a thing.
The difference is that Beck and Carlson are actually more straightforward with regards to how they lean. Rogan always suggests he’s a centrist, sometimes even suggesting he is apolitical, which is patently false.
What is that libtard saying? This makes no common sense?
Alex Jones been doing that kind of thing since the 90s (at least).
Glenn Beck can fuck off too
I think he’s got a show in some obscure place, but I blissfully haven’t heard his voice in years.
But there’s always a new asshole coming along
Any example of a question?
Do you just mean hard questions, like a classic journalist?
“Is it possible that Hillary Clinton actually was running a pedophile ring out of a pizza parlor basement? I mean, I’m just asking questions here.”
Ancient Aliens had more plausible propositions.
I have a little experience on Glenn Beck.
What sparked that was Glenn Beck asking the first sitting Muslim member of Congress, Keith Ellison: “Now, I wouldn’t say this, but some of my listeners might like to ask you: ‘Are you working for our enemies?’”.
Bear in mind that this was in a time when politicians were not openly working for Russia, so the idea of asking a sitting member of the House of Representatives if he was “working for our enemies” was galling. But it was Beck’s technique of “Oh, I’m not saying, this, rather, ‘it is being said by some unspecified people’” to weasel out of it being him saying it.
That said, I have avoided Rogan completely, so cannot speak directly to his particular brand of bullshit.
Thats pretty hilarious, the website I mean.
Hilarious and all, but did Glenn Beck rape and murder a child in 1990?
He hasn’t yet proven otherwise.
It’s not the question asked. It’s the first. Like hell have rfk on to spout nonsense about vaccines (made up example) and say he’s just looking at all views, just asking questions.
Well, if you have questions, ask a scientist that has studied it, not someone with a brain worm that directly caused children’s deaths due to misleading campaigns against vaccines on the Pacific islands.
Asking a terf on to talk about gender identity. Climate change deniers to talk about climate change. Asking trump on to talk about anything. It’s a way to muddy the waters about who is an expert while also making it unclear as to what the evidence says.
I work with a kid who I know listens to JRE often. He’s kind and very smart. What I’ve found is that he lacks confidence and prefers not to speak even when he thinks he has the right answer, for fear of being wrong. He’s depressed, and around this time last year checked himself into a hospital for a week. I know he recently started going to church, likely to try and find answers and support. He seems to mean well. All this to say, listeners of JRE may not be stupid or bad people. Some of them, a lot of them, I’d be willing the guess, are confused young men being brought to bad conclusions because they sound like answers and are wrapped with an “I’m just asking questions,” bow.
Yes, I agree with that about confused young men. However, at the end of the day, if JRE turns them into toxic men, then they’re still just toxic men.
I would hope that doesn’t happen. In general I think we as a society need to be kinder to these confused young men before they take that path. It’s a more difficult conversation to have and the solution is not very clear.
Either way, JRE is dangerous because it offers propagandistic suppositions as answers to people with big questions.
JRE is dangerous because telling people what they want to hear is a great way to make money.
I agree, and I’ll come right out and say it. Real, truly meant words of praise, appreciation, affection, and pride – where appropriate – go a LONG way toward turning that shit around. If you have the opportunity to work with younger people, never miss a chance to give them something positive and truthful by way of observation and praise. You have no idea how long it’s been, if ever, that they’ve been made to feel valued.
Hell, I wouldn’t even take a bet on how long it’s been since YOU were made to feel valued. Even those we assume are the most popular among us can be walking in emotional deserts, because we’ve collectively stripped society of everything but the most superficial shows of value.
While this is true for people of all genders, it is exceptionally true for young men. Find ways to praise and even mentor, if you can. I honestly believe that if every father told his male child at least once how much he loved him, instead of using that kid as a personal mirror at which to strike at his own insecurities, this world would be a markedly different place.
I had an uncle that learned this the hard way. He grew up in hell, which made him a cold hardass who could be absolutely vicious. Back in his day (the 50s) you had to get married, so he did and had a few children, but he was a complete bastard. And he joined the Army too, so he had that reinforcement going for him at work, which he of course brought home.
And then something changed for him. He had some kind of epiphany back in the 80s. I forget what it was. It wasn’t just religion, but something flipped the switch in regard to what he was doing to everyone around him. And in response he decided that he was going to tell everyone just how much he cared about them. His wife was like whatever, his own adult children were wary as hell, and even his friends were like okay but don’t hug me. Because he was doing it from a very genuine place, over time he actually won a lot of people around. Even (eventually) his own family, to whom he apologized and gave room to confront him over his prior shitty behavior. Amends were quietly made. And when he died his funeral was so packed there were lines around the block: none of us ever knew he even had that many friends, and friends they were, lining up to speak one after the other about what he’d done for them in his life.
His change was real. And he didn’t do much, he just decided he didn’t care if it made him feel or look like a fool and started telling people how much he really did care for them, and stopped lying his way through what hurt.
I’d prove it with an obituary if it wouldn’t dox me, but yeah. Start there. People treat young men in terms of what’s wrong with them; if you want to make a difference, start seeing what’s right with them.
One remedy for that is to stop listening to Joe Rogan
We can see how Joe’s dad was towards Joe very clearly. Here’s an ibteresting take that aligns with stuff I was thinking before but had not put together like this article did: https://open.substack.com/pub/alisav/p/are-americans-just-stupid?r=5hnm1
Wow. Yes. Thanks for the link.