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“All I want to do is exploit struggling people for far more than my property is worth. Is that so wrong?!”
Even more ironic is that the “professional” landlords/property holding companies hire property managers who do literally all the work, including both the upkeep for the house and interaction with the tenants. Like, what exactly do you contribute at that point? What would change practically if I hired the property manager directly with the money I would be paying you? Especially when the most common pro-landlord argument (used by landlords themselves) is that they fix things around the house and maintain it.
“You expect me to unclog a toilet?!”
Yes. That’s exactly what I expect a landlord to do. And if you don’t live in the same city as your rental property, maybe that shouldn’t be allowed.
I am against landlords like everyone else, but I draw the line at unclogging the toilet. It isn’t worth the effort to report that and I don’t need people unnecessarily seeing my shit in the literal sense. Provided that it is a standard clog and not something wrong with the toilet.
I’m not talking standard clog. I don’t mind using a plunger. But sometimes you need more than that and they should either do it or spend their own money on a plumber ASAP.
Ah, I see. The Super Poo, the Toilet Destroyer, HAZMAT. Things that only a professional can do. Sometimes the rabbit doesn’t come out of the hat and you need an extra hand.
I had a landlord who wrote into the original version of the lease that I (as the tenant) would be responsible for any needed repairs to the sewer system. This was a much more extreme version of being unwilling to unclog a toilet lol. I said fuck that noise and he took the clause out. He turned out to be a good landlord and he didn’t raise my rent once in seven years, but his tendency to just try and get away with whatever he could in the lease had me a bit worried at the start.
For individuals who own like a single rental property as an investment property, you could blame the banks. Maybe the tenants don’t have the 20% the bank would require for a mortgage. But they can afford the monthly rent for the larger house rather than a smaller apartment. Also the landlord takes on the risk here. (Market value, no Rent payment, property damage, maintenance…)
They take on the risk? That’s hysterical. Landlords don’t risk market value. They buy up all the houses when they’re cheap, make their money back and then some by renting the property, then make even more money when the housing market goes up and they kick the tenant out to sell the property. They don’t risk property damage, that’s the entire point of a security deposit. They don’t “risk” maintenance, that’s called doing their job.
Ok kid. I think you missed the first sentence in my comment.
I don’t understand why a 20% deposit is necessary. If you can make repayments as you can make rent, let them own the house already
You don’t need 20%, you do need at least 3% in most cases. You then pay pmi which is an extra cost.
PMI sucks too. (Again, banks suck.) but it’s still better than paying rent.
In Australia its way more common for landlords to use propert management companies.
They charge about 5%, the tenant rings them and says “The hot water is out” they ring me and say “You need to authorise us to send a plumber” I say “Ok” they ring one of their go-to plumbers who attends super fast because they dont want to lose the repeat business of a property manager who has 100 properties to look after and they fix it at a fair rate because if they dont the property manager will find a new plumber.
When I was renting out my first house (had to move for work for a few years) I couldnt get an electrician for my own house as fast and as cheap as my property manager could get one for my tenants.
“Fix my AC!”
Particularly ironic that this is being framed as “unreasonable” because landlords themselves directly argue that their upkeep of the house justifies the significant upcharge they take from tenants. Like, even if we argued that landlord as a career is 100% acceptable and valid, that would literally be your job, would be like a professional chef complaining about people saying “make me food!”
Had a cook who literally complained about receiving too many different kinds of orders and the customers were not even in a hurry
McDonald’s is always hiring.
If they can’t handle a low pressure restaurant where the customers aren’t in a hurry, there’s no way they can handle McDonald’s where the customers are actively hostile.
Cog in a machine
As a professional cook it be like that sometimes 😅
I’m sure that is a legit issue and the menu should be planned to reduce that load. In this case the guy was more suited to repetitive jobs in larger scale kitchens which mine isn’t.
I had a rentoid that would call me for the most insane shit all the time. Changing light bulbs, fixing their own personal AC unit and stopping a neibourhood dog from barking.
When they were evicted I held the damage deposit because the hardwood floors and internal doors were damaged to fuck by their dog which they tried to claim as being normal wear and tear.
Sounds rough man. Maybe you should just sell the property, then you wouldn’t have to deal with such things.
Maybe you should buy the property then you won’t have to deal with renting.
I own my house, doesn’t mean I can’t see landlords are leaches that are screwing the housing market.
Anyone who owns a home is a landlord by definition. You’re a lord of alloted land.
It’s silly that you believe that landlords are the problem. The housing crisis is 100% Chinese, Arab and Large buisness investors.
You’re the type that talks about the environmental impact of the people when 80% of pollution comes from a single source.
Anyone who owns a home is a landlord by definition.
I suppose if you completely fail to understand context sure, but why would I bother trying to have a discussion with someone who fails to understand basic context?
The housing crisis is 100% Chinese, Arab and Large buisness investors.
And what are these investors doing? Are they perhaps being landlords and renting out the property?
No. Most of the properties are left empty…
Or just evict them. I rent a portion of my home that I live in.
Yup, people here are generally young and have only had experience being on the tenant side of the equation. Someday they may find out what it is like being on the other side and that tenants can be pigs.
They may be good tenants and assume that most tenants are good tenants. Not realizing how rare that is.
Then you also have the ones who say every landlord is bad, which is clearly them just being a bad tenant.
I put my rent fairly low to help people out but the low income people are generally disasters to rent to.
Aw man, it’s almost like they think they are paying you…
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Not nearly enough. Rents due rentoid.
Bad renters exist, but for every story like yours I have five places I’ve lived in where it took months to fix the A/C in summertime and the landlord just let it fucking go meanwhile holding out their greedy mitts demanding $2000 a month.
2 grand! To live in 90° heat, if I wanted to do that I’d just live on the street.
Fucking landloids.
demanding $2000 a month.
Could be very reasonable or even cheap depending on location.
Does cheap mean they’re allowed to not fulfill their maintenance requirements meanwhile showing up on the dot collection day to take rent?
No. Use your rights. Withhold payment until the service is restored.
This will vary greatly from area to area but in most places for a tenant to withhold payment legally the property generally has to have a problem that would make the property “unliveable”. Like the front door falling off the hinges, no water or no functioning toilets or the landlord has to ignore the problem for an unreasonable length of time.
The A.C breaking in the beginning of summer and it taking a week to get an A.C company to look at it probably doesnt count. Them leaving the A.C broken for the whole three months probably does.
Historically people with the title “lord” have had it so hard.
The Gaylords would like a word
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It truly is a wonder why y’all are hated. You’re so… humble.
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the alternative is that I don’t rent out part of my house and then there will be less housing
This is only part of it. The “housing shortage” exists not because there aren’t enough homes, but that there are not enough homes on the market. Truthfully, renting out a spare bedroom is not the focus of people’s ire (though through a certain lens it is still a problem, but I won’t go into it here). The problem is that rent seekers are pricing people out of the housing market, which is creating higher demand for rentals, which drives up the market price, ect. It’s a systemic problem, and not necessarily one of individual culpability. Another part of the problem is the commodification of homes: any action taken to address home affordability will necessarily drive down home values (they are the same thing, after all), and many people depend on the value of their home not dropping. It’s a bubble with millions of people at risk of loosing their homes if it pops.
There’s this convenient assumption for landlords that the rental market is full of people who simply want to be renters, or full of people who simply can’t afford to purchase their own home (usually by some moral failing), when the reality is that rent seekers are creating the problem that they claim to be solving. Houses wouldn’t be so expensive if there weren’t so many people buying houses for the purpose of renting out.
All these cucks can blow me.
Of course, there are other reasons why people might be angry with landlords.
Or all these people are fucking idiots who are just obsessed with labels and culture wars.
New here?
Well that’s rather snowflakey… if you aren’t part of the problem why are you identifying with them?
The idea that ALL landlords are exploiting ALL tenants ALL of the time is just so fucking stupid it’s hard to listen to. Goods and services cost money, idk why that is such a hard concept to grasp. I lean left and will probably never vote R for the rest of my life, but it’s hard to listen to people like that who have no understanding of basic economics.
Landlords must exist because people need to rent housing, and it sure sounds like you’re doing it right. Some landlords (and some tenants) are awful human beings who should not be landlords while others are good people.
A bigger problem is happening in areas with housing shortages. Housing prices have been skyrocketing for 10+ years and home owners have been leveraging themselves with their home equity to buy other homes. On a large scale, that eats up a lot of housing supply, increases prices, and makes it more difficult for people without existing real estate equity to buy a house.
In the city where I live, owning a house is essentially not possible for middle-class people unless their parents give them a down payment. Even my girlfriend and I, who combine for more than triple the average household income in the city, are taking years and years to save for a $300k+ down payment that’s needed to bring the mortgage payment down to $6k/mo.
Landlords didn’t create the housing shortage, but I can see why someone who’s struggling to buy a house while watching landlords buy multiple houses can develop a hatred for them.
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I feel this so much. I own a property. I rented it out. I ran into that exact same lineup of expenses vs income you note here and… I ended up taking my house OFF the rental market. It’s just not worth it.
I keep getting into these discussions with people who yell “It’s immoral to buy a house and rent it out. Landlords must provide housing for renters at a loss so I can have cheap housing” and then… “It’s an investment and you as the owner must fund my low cost housing because you might earn equity in the property when you sell it in the future.”
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🖕😁
You can also tell by her anorexic physique that she’s no landchad. No fridge raiding happening here.
Even the father of capitalism thought landlords were parasites that only leeched off the economy
Adam Smith justifies the existence of rent as improvement in the value of land.
https://www.adamsmithworks.org/documents/chapter-xi-of-the-rent-of-land
Perhaps you’re misunderstanding the term ‘rent-seeking’ which is a different concept entitely
I read through until chapter 1 in that section you linked and he is pretty scathing of landlords and if I understand it correctly his argument is that landlords exist solely to soak up all extra profits above what would leave the tenant just enough to survive.
I’d strongly recommend you consider reading the entire thing, because that is not his take at all.
Consider at his time, “landlord” literally meant a lord who owned land, and much of the rent he discussed (often negatively) is shit like, charging people to harvest kelp near your house.
I don’t understand why you’re getting downvoted. You’re right.
Probably because he’s not actually presenting an argument, and is instead expecting people to read a 57 310 word essay. Oh, and if you read all of that and still disagree? “You must have misunderstood, read it again.”
Lol heaven forbid that someone should want you to have an understanding of what you’re talking about.
If you can’t simplify it enough to summarize in less than 57 000 words, then you don’t understand it.
Being right is its own reward.
I guess, but the mass incorrectness still annoys me lol
Fair. I was thinking today he seemed more to be referring to crops
Fun fact: all unions are inherently rent-seeking.
I say this as a supporter of unions - true is true. Rent seeking is inherently bad but the sum of the union equation is that they do more good than bad.
The police union, of course, is also uniquely bad in other ways.
I feel so bad for mine I’ve raised the amount I tip them every month from ~12% to 20%. You should, too - they struggle so hard.
(Lol)
Because I love my landlord so much I only communicate with him through my lawyer to make extra sure every letter is worded really nicely and politely, much more polite than anything I would every write him. Also got him two very nicely worded court orders by know he would’ve missed out on if it wasn’t for me.
You should tip at least 200%. Less is just selfish.
My old landlord refused to fix our water heater, the leaking roof causing mould and water damage, the outlets that were falling off, the broken light switches that didn’t work, the ceiling light that was flickering and and literally hanging by the wires. All for $2000/month + utilities. Then he kicked us out because he wanted to sell the place, but now he can’t sell it because no bank will touch it with the amount of water damage it has lmao.
Oh ya, can’t forget the 5 times he’s banged on our door threatening us with his lawyer because he stole $100 from us, we asked for it back, but he refused to answer our calls, so we had to wait 12 fucking months before our lease was up and we started paying month to month for us to subtract the $100 he owed us for 12 months from the payment.
You’ll get your rent when you fix this damn door!
You’re trash, Brock
Your know, I guess experiences vary widely, but the landlords I know don’t fit all the hate. For instance, one of my employees decided to rent her house instead of selling it when her family needed a bigger one. They’ve been renting to the same family for a decade or more without ever raising the rent. The family could not afford to buy any house, let alone the one they’re in, so renting allows them to live in a kind of place they couldn’t afford otherwise. My employee has let them skip rent a few times when times were hard.
I know a few similar stories. Maybe it’s different with people who own apartment buildings or whatever, but I just don’t see being a landlord as inherently bad. Like anything else, you can do it ethically or unethically.
Sounds like a problem with the price of housing, which is a not entirely unrelated issue.
Yeah, for sure - I live in southern California, which has about as high a cost of real estate as you’re going to find, but that isn’t caused by landlords. I mean, if you bought a new car and were selling your old one, you’d probably sell it for whatever the market would pay, right? Maybe if you’re really well off you’d just give it to someone, but most of us are going to sell for the going rate. It’s the same with houses. If I can easily get $500k for my house, I’m not going to list it for $400k just to be nice - I could use the money.
Do people feel like it’s inherently more laudable to sell their house than to rent it? It seems like, as long as they’re not gouging, they’re doing more of a service by renting to people who can’t afford to buy, and also covering all the costs of repairs and risk of damage that renters don’t have to worry about.
I just don’t get the hate broadly, though the management company who ran my daughter’s apartment complex were assholes.
I work in a real estate adjacent field, part of the housing issue IS very much because of big companies and people just buying up all the houses to rent them for passive income.
I don’t care if people have 2 or 3 houses but when they own 8 or 9 or hundreds then yea we have an issue.
Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. In every business, it’s possible to be predatory. Big companies are doing some really shitty things, and we should try to figure out how to stop that.
But some people are saying that being a landlord is inherently unethical - the moment someone rents a property, they’re a vile leach. I just think that’s wrong.
My last land lord raised rent by 2.5x after the first year. When we moved out he kept the full security deposit because “the inside of the oven was dirty”
Your mileage may vary
4 beautiful words that worked wonders with my shitty landlord who tried to keep my deposit “normal wear and tear”.
As soon as I stated that, the lady changed her tune completely.
Your landlord is allowed to raise it by that much? I’m Dutch and we have limits on how much rent can increase, which was a maximum of 4.1% in 2023.
Maybe it’s different with people who own apartment buildings or whatever
Yes. My landlord is literally a corporation.
Doesn’t matter either way. My landlord is an asshole who never fixes anything he says he will (even things he’s legally supposed to.) Can’t use the law against him because he’s allowed to raise the rent any time he wants with a few simple changes to our lease.
I’ve never had a good landlord. Most of them are greedy trash.
I’m a land lord, did exactly what people say we all did. 15 years ago I bought two 200k homes for 30k each… they are an income plan for my kids so they don’t have to necessarily worry about taking a better paying job instead of something they want to do. Probably a little naive now. But I run the houses at a bare minimum profit just so the government won’t come after me due running a loss on my taxes. I have raised rent only enough to do that. I pay for a property management firm to take care of the properties so that the tenants have 24 hour response to issues. I’ve had the same tenants for 12 years in both properties. Every 4 years or so I have one of the rooms that the tenants want renovated. It’s a right off so doesn’t costa fortune ava the house gets slowly updated. Not every landlord is an asshole. Some of us play the long game without screwing people. But I realize that I am part of the problem. I am part of the reason for less supply in the market. But selling my properties will make my children’s lives less secure and I’m not willing to do that. So i do partially deserve some of the blame.
I don’t see you having any blame. Supply and demand for housing includes everything, including rentals. You would be part of the problem if you bought those places and left them empty as vacation spots or something. You didn’t, you’re supplying them to people who I’m guessing wouldn’t be able to buy them themselves. You’re not driving up the cost of housing. I’d argue that, since you’re charging less than you could, you’re actually lowering it.
He literally is driving up the cost of housing. Rental markets are quite seperate to the actual housing market and people who own 3 houses, drive up the cost of buying a house. There is a good chance they can’t afford to rent, yes, but only because of people like him buying housing they dint need to make a profit, they can afford the rent, so they would also He able to afford the mortgage for it if given the chance.
they can afford the rent, so they would also He able to afford the mortgage for it if given the chance.
Have you purchased a house? Because this part is simply not true. You have to have a percentage of the cost up front. The more you have, the smaller the payments. Lots of folks who are renting out places put a lot down so the mortgage payments (and what they charge for rent) are much smaller than a first-time buyer can afford. Then you have the cost of property tax, maintenance, and repairs that the renter isn’t liable for.
This is very much the problem with the Canadian real estate bubble. People are paying rental prices now that absolutely could have paid for a house 5 years ago. But now they are paying a dangerously high portion of their income. The problem is that their rental prices that they pay now wouldn’t make the payments on the house today.
Not for myself, but yes, I have. And that’s kind of my point. You have these arbitrary barriers to entry on home ownership that are designed to keep poor people out, since the can’t afford these costs upfront, and can’t save for them because they are either paying their landlords mortgage instead, or are paying money directly to the bank/asset manager/ whoever owns their rental. So it’s in the banks best interest to not give them a mortgage.
And a mortgage plus maintainable and tax and everything else will be cheaper than renting, because if it wasn’t landlords wouldn’t be making money, so would raise rent
I think “designed to keep poor people out” is way off. People selling a product want nothing more than for other people to buy their product. The sellers of the house aren’t the ones setting the mortgage details - they have nothing to do with it, they just want to sell the house.
But few people can afford to buy a house outright, so they have to borrow money. The bigger the percentage of the purchase price you have to borrow, the more the payments are going to be. That’s not to punish poor people, it’s because they’re putting up their money so you can buy something, in return for them making a profit on their money.
And a mortgage plus maintainable and tax and everything else will be cheaper than renting, because if it wasn’t landlords wouldn’t be making money, so would raise rent
You’re still not getting it. Let’s say I want to live in a house that costs $600k, but I don’t have it. If I were to find a lender who would finance the whole thing (doubtful), the mortgage payments would probably be around $3k a month, and I can’t afford that either. But let’s say you have $300k to put down, so only have to finance another $300k, and your payments are more like $1500 a month, which I can afford. I pay you the amount that covers your mortgage, you end up paying property tax and other costs, but my rent is going into your property. If I live there for three years, you’ve gotten $54k in equity, even if the house’s value itself didn’t go up any, for just the cost of taxes and maintenance. Meanwhile, I got to live in a house that I flat out couldn’t afford.
I was not blaming the people selling the house, I was blaming the banks for putting an arbitrary down payment on getting a mortgage to keep poor people out of home ownership, which benefits the banks as they are all heavily involved in property investment so benefit from more people renting either by directly being the landlords or simply from the increased housing demand from landlords wanting to buy as many properties as possible, thus driving up housing prices, which drives up mortgages and makes them more money.
Like you say, the banks male their money from interest on the loan, so the 20k down-payment they require is an arbitrary barrier to entry.
No, I get it, you’re just making up a scenario that doesn’t really happen. Like sure a landlord could in theory pay half the price of a house just to reduce mortgage costs so they can rent it out at half the market rate AND pay property tax and maintenance out of pocket, out of thr kindness of their golden hearts. They could also just buy the house outright and let you live in it for free and just make their profit off of the increase in house value. But obviously they won’t. The landlord is going to charge you market rate for that 600k house which will almost certainly be more than 3k, because why wouldnt they? And even if they did, are the going to rent directly to you? Or are they going to advertise it and get a slew of offers of people wanting to live in a house for half price and so someone a little bit richer than you will offer them, say 1,750 for the house, because of supply and demand. And the vast majority of people aren’t trying to live in houses they can’t afford, they are just trying to live.
And even then, it’s still not ethical, you’re still exploring people for profit for their basic needs without adding any value to the system.
How the heck did you find not one but two 200k houses for 30k? Or are you saying you bought them for 30k and now they’re worth 200k? Either way holy balls I wish I could do either of those lol
I assumed they meant they were just worth $30k when they bought them. That is a pipe dream that probably won’t happen again in any of our lifetimes.
This shows one of the most common things landlords tell themselves to justify it.
But I run the houses at a bare minimum profit
You tell yourself this, to make you feel better, but you don’t acknowledge that almost all the money your tenants pay you is profit, since they are paying for the mortgage. Even if you rented at 0 immediate profit, for the entire time until you paid off the houses, you would have actually made 1.2million in profit, since you now own 2 houses at 600k each.
And those families, instead of paying a mortgage and ending with hundreds of thousands of dollars in equity, that they could refinance, or use to buy a better house or leave as inheritance for their kids, now have nothing, as all that money has gone to you.
There is no such thing as an ethical landlord. Even the “”“good”“” ones are still exploring people’s basic need for shelter to make them rich.
If you really wanted to be a “good” landlord offer those families the chance to buy the house with the 15 years of down payments they already made to you to start it off. But as you said they’re an “income plan” for your kids I don’t think you would do that.
I mean, I get what you’re saying. And perhaps if my financial situation was better I could consider the option to offer the houses to the tenants. But as you suspect I will not trade my children’s financial security just to be charitable. The rent I charge is 30%-40% below market value. I suspect if you were in my position you wouldn’t be so inclined to give away your wealth either.
I was in your position, when my grandparents died I inherited a house, that people encouraged me to rent out. Instead I sold it and invested the money (specifically into a green energy fund.) As that way I still have my financial security, without being a landlord.
I realize you aren’t going to agree, but these two situations aren’t the same thing.
Why not?
Because to start with, I invested and risked my own money a much less bubbled deal estate market with a significant amount of my available capital. You invested someone else’s money. I took all the risk, and you want me to give away all the profits from that risk. Even your “green” investments take advantage of workers, buy off shore parts, cost people their jobs. Why don’t you donate all your profits to those people. Your entire argument is so steeped in hypocrisy that it’s hard to even know if you’re not just a troll.
This is the whole “not all cops are bad a guy I know is a cop and he’s nice” argument just for landlords.
Or you could phrase it about slave owners “my freind owns slaves, but he just owns the one and he treats them really well!”
Landlording is inherently immoral and explotative, not matter hoe “”“ethical”“” the landlord is.
Landlording is inherently immoral and explotative, not matter hoe “”“ethical”“” the landlord is.
That’s what I’m not seeing. Can you explain what makes it inherently immortal?
The explanation depends on how deep or philosophical you want to go on this conversation, but basically you are exploiting someone’s basic need for shelter for massive profit, keeping trapped in the poverty cycle as they are having to pay rent to the landlord to pay their mortgage for them and so is much harder to save for their own house. As well as reducing supply of housing on the market, thus increasing prices and making it more innacessible.
Like imagine a group of a few wealthy people buying a town’s supply of food then selling it back to the hungry residents at a 300% markup. They don’t grow it, they don’t transport it, cook it or chsnge it, they don’t do anything that ads value, just buy it and sell it at a higher price, to the people that would have otherwise bought it for themselves. Do you consider that ethical?
Like imagine a group of a few wealthy people buying a town’s supply of food then selling it back to the hungry residents at a 300% markup.
Okay, that’s clearly exploitative and unethical, but that’s not inherently what landlords do. Anyone who sells products or services can do it in a way that’s fair or is unfair. The mere act of selling something itself isn’t unethical. Look at the conversations we have about drug companies. I don’t think anyone argues that drug companies shouldn’t be able to sell medication, or even make some profit for their research investments. The problem is when they price their drugs way above what’s reasonable just because they know people are going to have to pay it.
Renting out a house isn’t different from renting out anything else. You go on vacation and you need a car while there, but you don’t want to buy one for a short time, so you rent one. The rental agency used their money to buy the car, then they rent it to you for something you’re willing to pay for a week, and they make a profit from all the people who rent the car over its life. You both win. Why is it any different with a house?
The problem is when they price their drugs way above what’s reasonable just because they know people are going to have to pay it.
This is exactly the problem with landlords. The argument for landlords being that some people can’t afford to own a home becomes a bit moot when landlords buy up all the houses and rent them back at unaffordable prices.
Why is it any different with a house?
Because you rent a car for, like you said, a vacation. That’s like renting a hotel room. You rent a home to live in. If you could afford a mortgage, you’d buy a home. But landlords basically go “hey, the bank doesn’t think you make enough money to make regular payments, so make those payments to me instead.”
The problem most people have is their credit, not the mortgage payments. Both my mortgages (I’m not a landlord, but I do airbnb 3 months out of the year) are $1500/month, and most people pay that and more just for rent.
Nevermind the fact that some people are eligible to buy a home, but think they won’t qualify so they dont try. I was in that group with a credit score of 680, which is acceptable for the first time home owners program. I was accepted, and now I own 2 homes.
This is exactly the problem with landlords. The argument for landlords being that some people can’t afford to own a home becomes a bit moot when landlords buy up all the houses and rent them back at unaffordable prices.
You make it sound like that’s the normal case, but it’s just not so. Here’s a Pew research article.
72.5% of single-unit rental properties are owned by individuals, while 69.5% of properties with 25 or more units are owned by for-profit businesses.
I don’t mean to minimize it as a problem - it’s a big one - but the vast majority of rental house landlords aren’t big corporations buying up all the available places and jacking up prices, it’s individual’s who decided to rent their place out instead of selling it.
Drug companies produce the actual drugs though. They are creating value by making the drug and the money they make from selling it is their reward for creating value. Landlords do not build the house, so they do not create value.
And renting a car is different because its not something you need to simply survive and less importantly we don’t have a car shortage. And also you typically don’t rent a house just for a week most people rent houses for years and years until they can afford to buy a house, at which point their landlord has made 10s or maybe even hundreds of thousands off of them, while doing little work and adding no value. Like I’m not arguing against hotels or even renting in general, I’m against landlording for private homes, because its inherently unethical, just like buying all the food in a supermarket and selling it to the same supermarket customers at a markup to make profit for no work.
I guess we just disagree. I’ve said why I think they can be providing a useful service and create a win/win situation, but you don’t see it that way. Good discussing with you.
By this reasoning, farming for anyone other than yourself is also inherently immoral.
Farmers exploit someone’s basic need for food for massive profit, keeping people trapped in the rental cycle as they are having to pay for food from the farmer to pay their business loan for them and so is much harder to save for their own farm.
Farmers grow the fucking food you dunce. Do landlords build the fucking house? No.
I was just going to have a discussion about housing, but something in what you said made me curious about something else- Hopefully this isn’t too personal of a question, but do you make many friends with that sort of approach to conversation?
Yes, I’m only abrasive to people who are purposefully being dense and I’m lucky enough to have surrounded myself with intelligent people.
Idk I feel like there’s also something to be said to have the freedom to just buy another house after saving a bit. It sounds so easy, but most families would have to sell their house in order to upsize.
Never moved but my mom was in credit unions and the trade in of the house was pretty common. In all fairness, there were many “multiple apartment complex owners” at that same CU, they were notably colder and exclusively about numbers (i.e. throwing a fit and sending another appraiser to their barely functional building to get a dozen k).
Yeah, there are honestly a lot of reasons to rent instead of buy. One of the main ones is uncertainty about the market. Lots of times people think that the prices in an area are inflated and likely to come down. If you buy, you risk taking a big loss. The landlord, in that case, is the one with the risk. Similarly, if you don’t plan to stay in an area for several years, it can be more trouble (and even cost) than it’s worth. I’ve also known people who simply don’t want to be bothered with the upkeep, even if they can afford to buy. There’s a real freedom in being able to just pick up the phone when anything isn’t working, there’s a leak, or whatever.
Even if you try being a good landlord, dealing with some tenants can really darken your soul…
It’s also not as lucrative as most would think. I have a few rentals and it’s certainly not enough to quit my day job in IT. It’s maybe an extra $15-20k in my pocket at the end of the year after expenses and taxes and such, and I spend at least 10-20 hours a week doing accounting, maintenance tasks, coordinating contractors, legal stuff, etc. Sure, the equity is nice too, but it doesn’t do a whole lot for me until retirement age.
As far as whether landlords can be “good”, I see myself as providing a valuable service to those who cannot or don’t want to become homeowners. In a perfect world, those who cannot but want to become homeowners should, but the cost of housing has little to do with rentals and almost everything to do with zoning, development restrictions, and tax structure. Until that world exists, someone has to offer rental properties to these people, otherwise where would they live?
Until that world exists, someone has to offer rental properties to these people, otherwise where would they live?
If all the available housing wasn’t bought up by people wanting an extra 20k a year in rent, they’d live there.
If not landlords (and it often isn’t), it would be owner occupants buying them at equally obscene prices. Contrary to what the media might lead you to believe, something like 80% of housing units are owner occupant.
If not landlords (and it often isn’t), it would be owner occupants
That’s exactly what I’m saying. If it wasn’t for someone purchasing it just to profit off someone else just trying to live, it could be purchased by someone actually living there. You see how that’s better right?
It might be better for that one individual who purchased for themselves, but the people who can afford to buy is a much smaller group than those who can afford to rent. A healthy housing market has a good mix of both, because even if everyone who wants to own does, there will still be plenty of people who want to rent too. Whether it’s because they aren’t planning on staying more than a few years, or simply because they don’t want to have to deal with the tribulations of home ownership of which there are many.
Well, we’re already moving quite the distance from
In a perfect world, those who cannot but want to become homeowners should
In regards to
but the people who can afford to buy is a much smaller group than those who can afford to rent
You did say you were profiting off the rent. So the person paying the rent could afford to make all the payments you are making with the money they are currently spending on rent.
there will still be plenty of people who want to rent too.
I have no problem with people renting out their basement, that is adding to the number of available homes. Single unit dwellings should be illegal to rent out and landlords should have to live on the property they are renting.
The main point I’m trying to make is that rentals existing is not the reason housing is expensive and difficult to obtain, it’s a supply issue. Remove red tape, build more housing, so there’s enough for all the people who want to own and the people who want to rent. Fix that, then see how it balances out with natural market forces, and then you create policy if things are still wacky.
As for profiting off rent, yes, the tenants in any of my rentals could afford a 30yr mortgage payment with the cost of their rent. However, when I start adding in costs like maintenance, property taxes, insurance, and my own time and sweat, most of my tenants are paying similar if not less out of their pocket every month than they would be if they owned the home they lived in, the only difference being that they aren’t building equity. It’s not like they don’t get anything out of the deal either, they never have to worry about finding a plumber for a weekend emergency, or having to dig up $15k when the roof needs replacing, and most importantly, they can move somewhere else with zero risk of going underwater on a mortgage. Now, all that said, there are shitty landlords and property mgmt. companies out there and I would absolutely support reasonable legislation to get them to behave.
As for renting SFH, I disagree, although I am of course biased given that most of my portfolio is SFH. Just because someone doesn’t want to be a homeowner doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have the opportunity to live in a detached house. I’m not strictly opposed to some limitations on SFH rentals, but I still think we need to fix the supply issue before looking at that further. That said, I do think multi unit housing is much more efficient, and if it were made a lot easier to build, a huge number of landlords would readily switch from SFH to that. Heck, I want to replace some of my SFH rentals with multi units (I think du/triplexes are a good balance without sticking out too much in an otherwise SFH neighborhood), but getting planning approval for it is such a byzantine nightmare that I’ve given up for the most part.
My mom rented out 3 apartments and earned barely enough to take care of the two of us. A significant portion of her expenses go toward treating her type 1 diabetes
What’s a “good” landlord? Someone that upholds all of their obligations that the law says they have to do in order to make money off of the actual work of others? Still a parasite.
ThEy PrOvIdE a SeRvIcE!
Yes, the service of buying property so now property is unaffordable for me and I HAVE to rent if from you for more than my mortgage would have been, but you know, banks…
There might not be a good landlord, but there might be landlords that are not bad. My rent is low (too low and the government starts adding taxes to compensate your “non-competition”) and did not get increased in the years I have been living here. Broken things get fixed in a reasonable time, there are no scammy charges and so on.
edit: the mods leave up comments that insult landlords but delete my comments that insult people who insult landlords. stay classy, clowns.
I worked for money and then bought a house. Try it. But that would require getting a job in a field that actually matters, and then actually doing the work. I work in IT. What do you do for a living? :)
So does the person who made your coffee this morning not deserve a place to live? What about the person who delivered your dinner? The person who delivers your mail? The one who picks up your trash? The people who built your house? The person who stocks your groceries?
wHaT dO yOu Do FoR a LiViNg?
What does that have to do with your right to a roof over your head?
What do you do for a living?
So you have no idea and just assume they don’t “deserve” to have shelter of their own?
No such thing as a good landlord.
That’s not true at all.
I move around a lot and have rented from some great landlords in the past who kept the price low, property in great condition and couldn’t be more helpful when I’ve had problems. Granted I’ve had some awful ones too, usually big companies, but it’s definitely not fair to say there aren’t good ones out there.
I get that the world likes things in absolutes, and it’s easy to say that landlords are parasites and shouldn’t exist … but that neglects that not everyone wants to put down roots or go through the property of buying and selling a property every time they move. I’m definitely not defending the big investment companies who are just there to monopolise the market and squeeze every penny they can out of it, but it’s the same with every industry, there will always be bad actors who will exploit the system if they’re allowed to.
Landlords aren’t bad because they treat their tenants poorly, they’re bad because they make a living by monetizing a basic human necessity. It’s like saying there are no good billionaires, or all cops are bastards. Of course there are landlords who treat their tenants well, billionaires who donate a lot of money, cops who actually want to serve and protect, but saying they’re all bad is really saying they are perpetuating a broken system. Landlords are bad because you shouldn’t have to pay a monthly bill to have somewhere to sleep. Billionaires are bad because you can’t make that much money without exploiting the working class. Cops are bad because their complicit in abusing power.
There’s a reason “rent seeing behaviour” is a derogatory term.
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I don’t think privatized water utility companies are any better than landlords. They’re both symptoms of the same broken system. Utilities should really be government services, paid for by taxes. When water treatment is privatized, their business is no longer providing clean water, it’s making money. They just choose to make their money by throttling people’s access to clean water
Look, you making rational and nuanced arguments has no place here. We want pitchforks and torches!
The Nazis used torches, so those are out, and have you ever looked into the symbology of the pitchfork? It comes from the three prongs of the trident, of Posiedon fame, and we don’t do religion here.
All rentoids are bad. Rents due poor.
Yeh I support LGBT…
Landlords
GOP
Billionaires
The police
😎
I run a small senior living complex in a rural town. We have the cheapest rent in town. We scrape by, trying to make improvements here and there. They are maintained though. We seriously charge hundreds of dollars less than the next closest complex in the area. We refused to raise our rent in the past 4 years dispite rising taxes and utility bills. Most our tenants are widows/widowers living off a fixed income. We are either too nice or bad business owners because that “fix my AC” One always stings and reaches into my personal budget. And by “personal budget” I mean I eat ramen for a couple weeks.
Anyway, I actually feel like this meme. Other than my tenants are usually happy. Occasionally we get someone who is just never happy no matter what you do. I know all the other complexes are owned by one company essentially creating a monopoly and they have exploited this town. We get calls from people crying because they will be homeless.
For every one good landlord like you there’s 1mil slumlords that don’t think you even need AC, or think that black mould isnt a health hazard.
Bless you.
Tenants deserve to live in house conditions that the landlords themselves would be willing to live in.
It’s the model of housing as a business that is the problem, no matter how benevolent an operator may try to be. The market is designed to eliminate you as competition and reward the exploitative monopolistic company.
More importantly is whether or not you are or would ever act as a firewall against competing (or at this point any) housing development.
Like if a subsidized public housing for seniors opened up next door to your complex offering rates at or below your own: would you support it given this persistent at risk population?
We would support it. We only have 24 units, we field at least 50 calls a day. We would be fine. We have turned down an offer from the company that owns the other complexes. The offer was 3 times what we paid 10 years ago and had a few more zeros on the end of what we still owe. But these tenants have become family. Also from a business owner perspective I would rather have this steady income than the BS of a quick payday then having to reinvest somewhere else and work are butts off to get that sustainable without turning into a scumbag landlord. Landlording is easy if you charge exorbitant prices and pay people to do everything. We do all the work ourselves to keep the cost down. Meanwhile I work another full time job. So does my wife and we have two kids. I don’t have time to get another property to this point of sustainability.
Not all heros wear capes
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Ours put our rent up 25% so just because I was upset I paid this month’s rent a week late and they were complaining they needed the money to pay their montgage… Bitch please I don’t wanna hear about your financial problems
They need your money to pay their mortgage. Looks like you are paying for their house. I guess it’s one thing if that house is entirely occupied by you, but I’ve had this very same situation where I’m renting their basement yet paying $1300 (which was actually more than their mortgage)
It’s so fucking disgusting and insulting to not only not be able to afford your own home because of all this b.s, but to also be paying for someone else’s home…
I’m a landlord. I’m priced WELL below the market because my tenant is state patrol and is a great guy and a good family. I haven’t raised his rent ever. I will raise it when my HOA goes up next year, but that’s only to help cover my fees. If keep the rent so I can pick the right renters that is compatible with me. I rather have a good renter than a few bucks more a month.
I think the real test is if you give their deposit back. I’ve never gotten my deposit back without a fight, even after cleaning the apartment top-to-bottom. That’s why I always take photos before leaving.
This happened to me once. They sent a guy to check my place out, he said “Looks good, you’ll get your security deposit back.” Then months went by. Well unfortunately for them my BIL is a real estate lawyer and he was happy to draw up a packet of documents I could take to small claims court. I had to serve them about 3 times, each time the cost of serving them got tacked on. They didn’t show so I won by default so now the real work begang, collecting. They FINALLY paid it but I said, “You need to add the cost of serving you to it.” so they drew up a new check. Yup, a pain in the ass.
Shit my place was in better condition when I left than the way it was when moved in and they still wouldn’t give the deposit back.
Free market doesn’t work quite so well when it’s a required item like housing or medical.
Other landlords have different policies, but personally, what I return depends on if things are damaged not caused by wear and tear. So that depends on how long a tenant rents from my place.
Eg., If someone stays for a year and I got new carpets for them and it’s ruined, then I’m charging for the spots that couldn’t be cleaned.
Eg.,2: If someone stayed with me for 3 years and the carpet is already 8 years old, it doesn’t matter if it’s completely ruined, I’m not charging for that carpet.
This holds true for everything in the house.
One of my tenants wants to get a dog and the carpet is already 10 years old. I didn’t even charge more security deposits because once he lives, I’m going to replace that carpet.
This is the way!
My previous landlord was like this. Lived there 4 years, rent never went up. We left the place like we found it (which was pristine).
Just bc you are a great landlord doesn’t mean anyone should be able to hold such power over anyone. Not to mention ownership of land is a human concept we can live without.
Not to mention ownership of land is a human concept we can live without.
How would you do it differently?
So how do you handle it when there are more people than space available? How do you cover the cost of maintenance? What would prevent someone from taking your house without ownership rights?
I don’t have power over my tenants. They have as much power as I do. They can leave and I can also ask him to leave.
They have zero obligation to stay at my place.
I have a space to rent and they need a place to live. It’s a business transaction that both parties benefit from.
‘Abolish ownership’ is a pretty simple talking point, how would you make it work in a legal sense?
Who determines what is your responsibility vs the neighbor vs the city? How do you establish legal boundaries for purposes of theft, vandalism, or trespassing?
Laws might seem cold (because they are) or inhumane (because they are) but they are also the thing that keeps society organized. And that makes them one of the most important human inventions. Rights are the result of laws.
If you’re concerned about land prices, or people being ‘priced out’ of things, there are important alternate solutions to that kind of problem. Things like social services, improving education, breaking up super corporations, promoting healthy neighborhood design and small business, etc.
I think one main argument of people that take the ‘abolish ownership’ seriously don’t mean the concept of owning things you need and use, but the concept of claiming ownership of property that you DON’T use and use that as a way of enacting power over others. So I would say it wouldn’t be throwing people out of their homes but that owning property you are not using your self would not be legal. You could grab land or an empty house and it would be yours as long as you need it. Of cause this will not get rid of all the problems and conflict that already exists in some form now, but it doesn’t have to be total chaos and lawlessness.
You’re a bum. How dare you. You take money for nothing. You should let him live there for free. No one should own anything. I hate tipping. Fuck cars. I think that about covers it. :)
You forgot to tell him to use Linux.
Yeah, Fedora.
Gimme gimme gimme!
A company selling something I don’t like should be illegal.
So brave… thank you for your sacrifice!
Now fix my (your) AC.
