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America is such garbage lol. You guys should really focus on the important stuff.
We’re trying, but our government won’t let us.
Please separate government and politicians and media. Plenty hard work happening in our agencies solving important issues. And of course then congress wakes up and just spews bullshit.
We’re trying, but our government won’t let us.
Its full of evangelical Christians. That and Anglo-Saxon culture even minus the evangelical Christians is very squeamish around sex. Just look at the different attitude towards talking to kids about sex that you find in the UK and on the Continent, even the Germanic countries tend to be a lot more open about this stuff than the UK.
Its full of evangelical Christians.
That number has been shrinking for decades, while at the same time the christo-faccists are getting more pushy.
Who are these “christo-fascists”? I’m a big skeptical when people throw that f-word around. I might generally agree with their points but they almost always have a political ax to grind. Hence the hyperbole.
The Ohio Republican party just made a brazen attempt to consolidate power (and failed).
They tried to effectively remove citizen initiatives, because the legislature doesn’t control those.
The overlap of people that call themselves devote christians and people that are racist and fascist is huge in America. Mind you, they call themselves christians, they don’t act like they claim.
A while ago I saw someone flying the flags of the “Anti-Antifa” and a huge cross. Mathematically that makes them the “Fa”. If only anyone knew what that part stands for…
P.S.: Oh and this isn’t exclusive to the US of A. Here in Germany the conservative party bears the word “christian” in their name and they have been inching closer with the neo-Nazi party AfD for years now - if not politically then at least ideologically.
They know, guy. Fascists have stopped being afraid of the label except in terms of scaring the “centrists,” but they don’t mind that we know they’re fascists.
Anti-antifa does not make one fascist. Britain and America were anti-Antifa and made sure they regained no power in the early days of the BDR. You might disagree with Western, anti-socialist and anticommunist politics, but they were decidedly not fascist.
This is what I mean. A political ax to grind and a bunch of word games.
By the time you realize you’ve been duped, it will be too late.
Can you give me a source regarding that claim? It is also okay if its in german. All I know is that the communist party which had ties to the soviets was the first party the U.S allowed, because it was Nazi free. A few years later the “Christian Democrats”, which were full of literal Nazis, made them illegal and continued the Nazi stuff without so much killing in Germany, they still funded the facists in Spain to continue murder people in the civil war the fascists began. People suspected to be Antifa couldn’t get jobs or had to go to prison in germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(Germany)?wprov=sfla1
The section postwar commities.
I’m late to this, but I think you were unfairly downvoted for asking a legitimate question. The modern definition of fascism that is separate from the Italian political party comes from Umberto Eco’s essay Ur-Fascism: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism
His 14 points closely align with the US Christian right wing and more generally the rise of right wing authoritarianism globally.
Thanks, I appreciate your response. But don’t worry. I am here to help out FOSS software, and because I believe in the Lemmy project.
I am perfectly happy to share my honest opinions and be downvoted. That’s part of being part of a community.
At any case, to respond more precisely to what you were saying. I will read the Umberto Eco essay at some point (sorry, its long and I’m busy). Nevertheless, I feel as though a redefinition of the term clearly has a political motivation behind it. Why not simply call right wing Christians by another name? I feel the word fascist is used because of its historical connotation and because it helps people with a far-left agenda get what they want. It’s an effective strategy because conservatives end up defending themselves and trying go prove they’re not Hitler rather than talking about something a bit more substantive.
No worries. It’s a short read as far as essays go. Both the Nazi and Fascist parties were authorization but neither were left or right in the modern US instances. Eco’s whole point was to divest the cultural and time trappings of this brand of authoritarianism into a general definition of modern populist authoritarianism. It’s a good read.
I am completely with you on the f-word being thrown around willy nilly these days, but there are a disturbing number of self proclaimed Christian nationalists in government and among the evangelical populace. Marjorie Taylor Greene is not the only politician to state this on a televised interview, but is the first one to jump out at me.
It’s thrown around a lot now because it’s apt. And the Republicans need to rely on it more and more as people realize the truth to the capitalist propaganda and they can’t keep in power using BS like trickle down economics. People are understanding that equality isn’t a part of what Republicans are interested in, so they need to appeal to the people who aren’t interested in equality.
The rich are one group that benefits from inequality but are outnumbered by the poor, so that leaves people who believe in fascist ideals, like one race is better than others, or gender, or gender preference, or some other trait that means they can feel superior without needing to do anything that sets them apart.
Which might have been at the root of why people were willing to believe that bullshit that favoured the ruling class in the first place because my own reaction to “trickle down economics” the first time I heard of it was that it was fucking stupid. I still don’t see many people pointing out that even if it did work, it implied that some people deserve the bulk of resources to pass through their hands and be used to get labour and other goods from those it “trickles down” to.
I’d argue that the American dream itself was fascist, at least the versions that have everyone aspiring to be billionaires. The Confederacy was fascist, existing purely because they thought that some men should be able to own others outright.
Delusional. You may disagree with American capitalism and the plutocracy it has become. I’m inclined to agree with you to a point. None of those things are fascist.
The far left is obsessed with fascism. Maybe it is because you are both brutal and authoritarian when you gain power.
The label “fascist” now gets tossed around as much as the label “communist” did in the 50s.
The Brits seem to have an obsession with pedophilia on par with the far-right in the US that you don’t see in other countries.
It really is profoundly Anglo-Saxon (whether in Britain or the States). I really don’t know why they’re like that.
It’s definitely not Anglo–Saxon as in “inherited from the Germanic tribes of Angles and Saxons”, afaik medieval and early modern English society was quite open about sex.
After the Reformation, England bred or harboured quite a few fundamentalist Christian sects which had a huge impact on English and especially American society.
Yes, you are right. I meant Anglo-Saxon in a more colloquial sense
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My parents had a porn blocker, and all it made me do was learn enough about computers to circumvent it. Even if they put age verification in front of every porn site in the world there’s still torrents and chat rooms and forums all over where you can find it, and kids will find it. Next thing they’ll mandate is putting toothpaste back in the tube.
Not only will they find it, they’ll end up going to the sketchier sites that don’t do the age verification because they’re not well known enough and not following the laws and they’ll likely get something infected on the computer/network or worse.
Not only will they find it, they’ll end up going to the sketchier sites that don’t do the age verification because they’re not well known enough and not following the laws and they’ll likely get something infected on the computer/network or worse.
It’s like that time we declared a war on drugs and then there were no drugs. Wait, actually that led to a massive black market and tons of violence.
Point being, you’re not gonna stop it. You’re just gonna make it less safe.
Yep. Who among us as idiot teenagers hasn’t downloaded “$current_starlet full nude sex tape.exe” from some shady site?
When my wife insisted I put a porn blocker on the internet, I did some simple DNS tinkering, then told my son not to let his mother catch him bypassing the “blocker” I put on.
When I was growing up we had the ultimate porn blocker.
Dial up internet was far too slow to load more than about half an image per hour.
It would loan line by precious line. Should I look now and enjoy the suspense or wait ten minutes and see the whole pic in all of its glory? Usually I would be weak and sit there enjoying the anticipation…one line at a time…then finally, when you were so horny you just couldn’t take it anymore…you see her penis :/
Kids today don’t know how good they got it.
This blows my mind. Why not just push back on your wife for being ridiculous? I say this as a woman with two boys who has been married for 10 years.
One picks their battles…
Funny you should mention putting toothpaste back in a tube, because I actually helped someone do that last night. It’s possible, but also a huge pain in the ass. That’s not a commentary on anything besides literal toothpaste.
I would like to hear the rest of the story, please.
My housemate was going on a trip to Alaska the next morning. She had a mostly empty 3 oz toothpaste tube and she was trying to refill it from a larger tube. No idea what she was so opposed to just buying toothpaste when she arrived. I think she was mostly just doing it because she could.
The solution involved holding the tubes end to end and squeezing the larger tube, alternating with using a stirring rod to pack the toothpaste into the smaller tube.
But why?
My housemate was going on a trip to Alaska the next morning. She had a mostly empty 3 oz toothpaste tube and she was trying to refill it from a larger tube. No idea what she was so opposed to just buying toothpaste when she arrived. I think she was mostly just doing it because she could.
The solution involved holding the tubes end to end and squeezing the larger tube, alternating with using a stirring rod to pack the toothpaste into the smaller tube.
I’d build some kind of suction device to put negative air pressure on the tube while holding the nozzle in the toothpaste
Mine straight up used Spyware. I learned to make multiple copies of older sessions to cover up anything I wanted, then I replaced current sessions just like they did on security cameras in the movies lol.
I just think of it as a safety net to prevent (or at least reduce the risk) of young children accidently stumbling upon something nasty or graphic that they didn’t mean to.
This should also be done by proper parenting and supervision but as technology and internet devices are friggin everywhere I don’t think it’s a bad idea for parents to also have some decent filters on their internet connection.
Doesn’t stop someone who even knows half way what they are doing, but by that point hopeful parents will have talked and educated their children about things before there’s a concern about intention seeking stuff out.
Porn sites have had “Confirm you are over 18” since the dial up days. That’s about as much of a safety net as I think is necessary or practicable.
A decent filter on a network (think pi-hole and next dns and the like) helps block adverts, trackers, scam sites, shady pop ups as well as bog standard porn sites etc
Internet is full of things that it’s easy to accidentally stumble on that you wouldn’t want a young kid to see and I think it’s a reasonable step to have some basic levels of controls on your own network
The onus is on the parents to manage internet access in a way the feel best and shouldn’t be forced or assumed. definitely not to porn sites (or any other site!) to collect entirely unnecessary personal data which would inevitably get leaked.
I totally agree and I put in a good faith effort to block that stuff from my kids’ devices using a pihole and what’s available on their phones. But I remember being their age and getting away with things because I figured out the workarounds.
At the very least it’ll teach them a little about networking and computers which will serve them well in their careers.
Absolutely, that’s why I keep saying “accidentally” - anyone who thinks an internet filter will stop someone with any determination is kidding themselves.
Religious zealots shouldn’t be dictating what I watch, read or do.
Especially when they’re watching this stuff too
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Jesus, at this point over half the country will ban porn because of religious extremists who hate freedom. Fascism and anti free speech.
Age verification for pornography has something like a 70% approval rating. It’s not a religious extremism issue, it’s a “normies don’t want or care about their freedoms issue”.
The concept is not terrible, the implementation is. Passing this law with no secure way of proving identity is where it’s clearly just a Christo-fascist power move.
The concept is fine, but even the best known implementation is impossible without putting an unacceptable level of trust in one group.
This should be parental controls - make websites declare a rating, then let the owners lock down devices
Nothing is going to be absolute, but we have to prioritize freedom or soon our Internet will look like China’s. They’ve already been talking about banning vpns and kosa would make you tie ID to anywhere you can post - all social media is considered possible adult content by default
I like this idea. Have the W3C create a rating system that sites self-select, and then work with Microsoft, Apple, etc to adhere to those ratings in their parental-control systems. I also approve of Apple’s idea of CSAM or explicit image scanning on devices where it blurs it out for minors. All of which can be controlled by parents, not governments.
And fuck sending your driver’s license to random shady porn sites
I think a law verifying your age over the internet inherently breaks the idea of a free internet, of which we are already seeing degradation of by Google and DRM/web integrity anyways.
I think a law verifying your age over the internet inherently breaks the idea of a free internet
That was broken decades ago.
today couldn’t have happened if yesterday’s degradation didn’t occur. it’s been slowly breaking for a while now.
I don’t see how it doesn’t violate free speech. Imagine needing the government’s permission to talk to someone?
Edit: forgot a word
I agree. Even internet security protocols are at risk, and the dinosaurs responsible for writing laws don’t understand basic encryption let alone the idea that it is 100% a needed concept in a free, fair, and just society.
There are already age limitations that are constitutional. You can’t run for office, buy alcohol, drive a car etc.
That’s not speech. You can age limit things, but not on speech. Beyond that, the limitations on speech have to meet certain conditions where it’s in the publics best interest and doesn’t put too much burden on the public.
The only implementation I would support is one where the asking website doesn’t know your ID, and the verifying website doesn’t know what you’re trying to visit. Essentially just asking for a one-time use token that verified your age, and providing that token to the website you’re trying to visit.
Edit for a bit more detail: User authenticates to ID website, which provides them a token with age verification (true/false) and a short (10 minute?) TTL. This token is encrypted by the ID website. User then provides this token to the asking website (eg: pornhub). Pornhub then sends the token back to the ID website to decrypt it. All pornhub knows about you is whether or not you’re of age, and the verifying website never knows what the token is for.
that’s amazing, I would love to see this implemented, problem is nobody wants to set it up, they want the data. I think they enjoy the discomfort hoping people will stop. If the system was setup and used despite all the pressure, the short TTL may create the risk of traffic correlation attacks, especially for the smaller, less traffic sites. this is something that can likely be fixed.
There would be too much value in tracking that token for such a scheme to stay secure. Governments or shady corporations or illegal black markets or all of the above would be all over keeping tabs on what sites are visited by which tokens and matching them to identities.
The whole point is that the token itself doesn’t have any personal info attached to it, only a yes/no and expiry time.
I’ll even one up my original suggestion - it uses standard public/private key encryption, where the government issues a simple json token with a yes/no Boolean and a TTL. The public key that can decrypt the tokens is public. Pornhub then decrypts the token and verifies the boolean and expiry date, all without talking to the government at all.
ISPs already have, and do sell that data.
The way the US is going, with anti-LGBT laws popping up all over the place, I have less trust for the government collecting that information than the sketchy porn sites themselves.
You’re not wrong.
I think there is a lot more to this that a secure way or protecting children.
It’s the base idea that I have to prove who I am online at all. That I cannot lie. Lieing should be a fundamental right. Not identifying yourself should be a fundamental right. Giving a false name should be a fundamental right.
I get that too, but we wouldn’t want people buying alcohol or fire arms anonymously. Imo access to pornography should be like access to R-Rated movies or Parental Advisory music. Guidelines set either by the industries or government, but policed by parents.
You don’t want people buying alcohol anonymously? Im totally for it.
You’ve hit the nail on the head while at the same time missing everything. Parents should be policing their children and what they do on computers. It’s not like there is a spectrum between pg porn and x rated porn. The websites themselves are already the R rating.
things like Ecchi and stripteases exist, but its too mild for PornHub. Soo… I’m not really making a point.
Both the concept and the implementation were approved almost unanimously, with overwhelming bipartisan support. Not sure why you’re having a hard time with this.
That just means that almost every politician on both “sides” are pushing a Christo-fascist power move.
The Democratic party is only better than the Republicans on this in relative terms. As a non-American looking in, both of them are right-wing parties that bow to religious interests. It’s just that one of them is waaaay off to the right wing, out in the reeds of loonieville, whereas the other has kept at least within spitting distance of center most of the time.
Not sure where stating that means there’s any difficulty in understanding anything. That’s such a naive perspective to take. No one is claiming a Texas state senator that is a Democrat is the same as a Democrat in a deep blue state. It’s all relative and only fools or liars would claim otherwise.
No, not “no one is claiming that”, because I am claiming that. Contrary to your apparent belief, large swathes of urban Texas are little different politically from a blue city anywhere else in the country. A state rep for Austin fought prescription drug companies and against putting the 10 Commandments in classrooms. Does that sound Christofascist to you? Because he voted for the bill. Close to 40% of the State legislature are Democrats and the majority of them approved this bill. Acting like a representative for Austin and a representative for rural Texas are both Christofascists because they come from the same state is actively counterproductive to gaining a better understanding of the situation. If you’re tilting at windmills and blaming imaginary enemies you’re going to miss the real forces that are driving these decisions.
Even if they aren’t Christian, there is a stream rolling effect on “protect the kids” bills where going against it is going to get you thrown out of office. That’s the kind of political climate we are in unfortunately.
Most democrats are Christian too. I’m not excluding them from blame here.
70% approval rating but what’s the base? If it only surveyed 10 people and 7 say yes, it is 70% but means nothing.
“Are you over 18: Yes/No”
Think nobody is arguing against that. I’d rather not give 1000 different private companies my government ID who get hacked all the time. The same people passing these laws had nude magazines growing up too.
I think there’s a lot of vague support for keeping porn away from children that evaporates in the context of the actual issue at hand where porn sites are being mandated to collect and store the IDs of every visitor.
It’s kinda tragic too. I do agree with the sentiment behind age verification, it is in the kids’ best interest that they not be using porn at that age. But there’s really no way to effectively enforce this without violating basic rights. There is no good solution. Given that dilemma, all we can do is try to better prepare parents to deal with this in their home.
How is it in their best interest not to consume porn?
I would have guessed that’s where the religious oppression was targeted, whatwith being overly obsessed about peoples’ sexualities.
At what age? 6? Sure.
16? 13? Less likely that it’s “in their best interest”, because they’re now dealing with those physical and psychological changes that are very much in line with the content of porn.
Just like TV, movies, video games, books, and other forms of fantasy / entertainment, parents need to be involved, have earnest communication with, and provide education for, their kids about the porn they will be consuming.
But “porn is icky”, so they won’t.
Is it really that bad if kids see a bit of porn? Like really? I grew up before the internet, but even in my day porn mags and VHS tapes got passed around when I was a teenager. Kids are always going to be curious.
Even so on the internet there are much worse things than porn that are harmful for the development of children. There are various groups of questionable morality like incels, or other mysogynistic groups, alt right stuff like neonazis, christofascists, climate deniers, … If I had children, I would be much more concerned about them falling into one of those ideological traps than them seeing some titties. Hell, even TikTok is probably more harmful for giving them a dopamine addiction and an increasingly short attention span.
So to me, it seems a bit weird to single out porn. It feels like a convenient scapegoat for parents who don’t want to spend time raising their kids and paying attention to what they are looking at on the internet.
I don’t have kids either, but my siblings and friends do, and kids today aren’t just seeing a little porn. It’s not like Playboys in the woods or a single 2 MB image downloaded for hours on dial-up. It’s pretty violent sexual activities in video, like strangling or surprise anal sex. Even twenty years ago, my first sexual partners had moves they picked up from porn, but they weren’t violent. Talking to young women today, the moves their partners are picking up and have been normalized by porn tend to be violent. Like, I never had a friend in college tell me that her boyfriend slapped her during sex and called her a dirty whore while she cried, but that seems to be a pretty common experience today.
The issue is that even older teens don’t have the life experience to contextualize what they see in porn and separate it from how you act in real life. If you’re into slapping people, that’s fine, but you’ve got to talk to your partner about it before you do to. If you’re getting your sex education from porn, then you don’t get the people skills part that’s important for successful relationships in real life.
This study touches on a lot of what I’m mentioning here, and they found a correlation between violence in teen relationships and porn viewing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6751001/
So, yeah. I don’t know what the solution is. I don’t think it’s sending a copy of your ID to a porn site, which seems incredibly risky for other reasons. I think sex and relationship education would help a lot, but that only connects with the kids who listen. Obviously there’s a parenting component there, but I don’t know how many parents are mentally health enough to have those conversations honestly. 🙃 Probably not the ones who wrote this bill.
I don’t really know what the answer is either, but you’re right. The extremes we see in porn today are very concerning. The things you listed shouldn’t be in main stream porn and need consent and open conversation outside of sex before adults who understand what they are doing actually do them. I find it crazy that it’s made its way into mainstream videos and blame the idea of things having to be ever crazier, ever more extreme to get attention.
But blocking teenagers off from porn, or trying to, won’t help anything. I think we need to be open, honest, and have real sex education. I also think these things are why some sex ed now includes actually how to have sex rather than the physical components. But that serves to give the prudish more ammo of how sex education is porn itself even when meant to be purely educational and combat these extremes people are seeing. There’s so much nuance to the issue that I think a lot of people get bogged down on one part or on their own preconceptions.
Talking to young women today, the moves their partners are picking up and have been normalized by porn tend to be violent.
the other thing it does is gives people trauma.
The only porn left will be yiff, because sites struggle to classify it as porn (it even makes it past google’s filters). And a new generation of furries will be born. Their ban will be their undoing, lmao.
“The elder scrolls told of their return. The defeat was merely a delay.”
The less furry porn lore I know the better
/c/brandnewsentence
and then those same people who want it banned close their curtains and start watching it.
Like all these child protecting puritans who end up being pedophiles and sex traffickers lol
They’re predators who are paranoid someone’s gonna take away “their” prey
Oh, don’t forget kosa, it has bipartisan support
They want to hold sites responsible for children accessing NSFW content on them. Which means ID of some kind
It would also apply to user posted content
I doubt it could be actually banned. The US had this fight decades ago and Porn was given 1A protections. If they could ban it they would but they can’t so they are doing the next best thing by making it inconvenient and uncomfortable for people to get to.
The problem though is that all those things we fought for before and being rolled back. You could have said the same about abortion, but then we regressed because of religious extremists.
Even if there was some secure, hardened way of verifying people’s ages without handing over PII to random websites, these age verification laws are still utterly ridiculous.
It’s not the government’s job to parent your kids on the internet. If you don’t want your kids visiting specific websites or viewing specific content, you take 15 minutes out of your goddamn day to do your job as a parent, and set up a content blocker on your home network.
Or you know,talk to the poor bastards
Nah, it’s easier if I have the state do it for me while inconveniencing everyone else. /s
From reading about the law it sounds like they are trying to take a page from CA’s overreaching prop 65 law that effectively labels everything a potential carcinogen. Based on the data the main beneficiary of this are a handful of law firms. I wouldn’t be surprised if this law is backed by a few law firms who smell easy money.
The irony of this lol 🤣
The sicko in me hopes they spend the next two weeks linking every policymaker in the state to their pornography habits and just dump the whole dataset online. Yeah, it would probably counterproductive and not great for democracy but I wouldn’t it be the sickest burn of all time?
Guess a state with a big enough user base finally tried this horse shit lol.
I think a lot of these states are going about this wrong. We should be helping parents restrict access for their children rather than trying to verify identities of adults who likely want to remain anonymous.
I’m of the opinion that protecting children has little to do with the actual intended purpose of laws such as these.
fuck porn
just cuz you swore it off doesn’t mean everyone should
and when did i say that everyone should boycott;****hub
then what exactly are you saying?
i do not want arguments on lemmy, now im going to assume that you’re addicted to arguments and now im going to not reply to you Wich is something i hate on things similar to Reddit. also you’re username is probably made by a 4 year old
Holy shit, you gotta talk to someone about whatever you got going on in there
ok KuKluxKaren
I’m pretty disturbed by the attitude of lot of the comments on this thread. While this law is probably not going in the right direction, this knee jerk reaction of calling any regulation of porn “puritanical” and an infringement of your rights is crazy to me. I feel like access to internet porn is not a fundamental human right, and it’s not puritanical to maybe want to prevent kids from being unwittingly exposed to a shitload of porn at a young age.
Regulations that require you to expose your personal data for no benefit are all those things and more.
Educating children about sex so they can consume porn in a healthy manner (because spoiler alert: these laws do nothing to stop them watching it) is 100 times more productive and positive than invading the privacy of law abiding adults. But that would actually require time and money which none of these law makers want.
It’s never about protecting children or making the world a better place. It’s about moral posturing and pretending you’re doing something so you can get votes.
I’m all for educating children about sex, and I’m also sympathetic to the plight of data privacy.
However, I also feel like the internet right now is a pretty bad place for minors. Like, there’s so much porn and other harmful content that’s so easily accessible, to the point that it’s easy to find yourself stumbling into it on complete accident. And with the speed that the internet evolves, it seems pretty unreasonable to me to just kinda expect parents just to be able to fully keep up with it.
I don’t think I support this law in particular, but I also don’t know what could possibly be done to any real effect.
But they will watch it anyway? How about you give these kids some education about it instead?
Of course kids would still try to access porn, there’s always ways around walls on the internet. Just like how banning guns wouldn’t prevent everyone from accessing guns, and banning sale of alcohol to minors doesn’t make minors stop getting drunk.
In that sense, I do suspect that if there were more boundaries to accessing porn, children would watch it less, and would maybe be less likely to be exposed to it without their consent.
