Firstly I’m so sorry that your children experienced sexual assault. I wish them both justice and healing.
I typed up a long reply with references that I ended up deleting because it didn’t seem appropriate right now.
I have multiple genuine criticisms of feminism that come from actual feminist scholars about its interaction with the class and power structure, embedding of western imperialistic epistemology in it and others. None of it is because I’m opposed to equity or women’s rights. At the end of the day no philosophy is perfect and the actual practitioners are even less so. That is why it makes sense to talk about it and work on it.
I want to ask are you doing okay friend? It seems like you’re not.
I still have made only a singular point, that someone can prefer the label humanist over feminist despite agreeing with everything feminism might say without being a ‘chud’.
You have created strawman after strawman through this conversation, accusing me of conflating man haters with feminists, defending the sexual assault and genocide of Genghis Khan, diagnosing me as being ignorant of what humanism or feminism is, of not caring enough to study either, agreeing with white mansplaining, diagnosing me as having a litany of problems with women and being full of red flags and so on. I’ve tried to engage you from a place of good faith, even after the cruel remark of asking if I were sexually assaulted by women and trying to use that to frame me as a woman hater. You’re fighting something that isn’t there.
I left the original comment because I thought it might make you think that there are real people who don’t fit the categories that have become drivers of the culture war. It pays to listen to each other. Instead it seems like my comments have caused you unnecessary distress and I apologize for that.
Thank you for your kind words. My daughters were both denied justice like so many women. This is pretty normal as only a small fraction of rapes are ever successfully prosecuted. I was always hyper-vigilant with them, but you can’t always be there to protect everyone every moment.
It is not just my daughters though. My wife, my mother, and every women I have had the privilege to talk to about this topic has been sexually assaulted. Often time multiple times throughout their life.
I have worked in CPS and some of the things I have experienced would shake normal people to their core and send them running away. I have been a care coordinator for elders and the stories they tell are equally hair raising. I have worked hand in hand with women shelters and I have seen abuse in the worst ways imaginable.
I totally agree in your situation that you can prefer humanism over feminism without being a chud. Not so much for people who have never bothered to read about either of them.
I will once again point out that they are not the same. Humanism talks in generalities about issues. Feminism explains how and why which is very different than humanism. Humanism does not encompass feminism rather they are distinctly different. Until you recognize this I think you will continue to flounder when discussing your preferences in regards to these two topics.
Feminism has a lot of good criticism out there, but equally humanism does as well. Both have been characterized of relying on western-centric values and being used as a tool instead of a solution to existing power dynamics.
I understand you believe you have tried to engage in good faith. Do you really believe that group of abused women is representative of feminist scholars? I suppose this may be splitting hairs to some people, but not to people who understand these as complex topics that can never be represented by single or even groups of people.
I am probably going out on a limb that someone will be happy to cut, but the majority of people who claim to be feminists really have no foundation in understanding feminism. It is more about identity than a genuine belief/knowledge of the values of modern feminism. This may seem like a no true Scotsman fallacy, but the devil is always in the details.
I’m so sorry that your daughters were denied justice, and that other women in your life suffered similarly. I’m unlucky enough to say that I’m not unfamiliar with being in that position. I understand. Sometimes the injustice and cruelty of it takes your breath away.
I don’t know if you have heard of this but there’s a book that I use as a guide in my life that I often ask people to read when they feel that they’re being asked too much. It is called ‘The boy who was raised as a dog’ written by two child psychiatrists.
Thank you for considering my words kindly. I definitely agree that humanism and feminism are not the same. Neither humanism or feminism are perfect, which is why we need scholarship, discussion and lived experience. Most people sadly try to reach not even one.
They fulfill different purposes. Lived experiences and the day to day fight for justice is different from judicial or feminist scholarship and is no less valid. At the same time frameworks for fighting for individual justice and equity are different from those for the same at the systemic level.
It is also truly connected to the no true Scotsman fallacy as you pointed out. I arrived at humanist umbrella because it encompasses a broader set of intersectionalities that aren’t necessarily the focus of feminist movement or scholarship until recently such as race (which has changed a lot), language, disabilities, neurodivergence, colonialism, religious oppression and other things that are personal to my experience.
I also arrived at it because I found that the feminist social movement, in parts, as a way to maintain cohesion and structure framed the struggle partly as a conflict with an out group and individual moral failing, often implicitly, which is antithesis to the decidedly non-western moral ethos that I come from. This is not necessarily reflected in the scholarship or formal frameworks. The sad reality is that people took labels and analysis that were supposed to be descriptive and started using them in a prescriptive fashion, which caught on, and as you said very few people cared to look at the original sources.
The lack of categorisation and acknowledgement of universal worthiness is what attracted me towards humanism. To me it is valuable because there is no humanist tribe.
It all circles back to the Scotsman, is fighting for justice and equity for women feminism if you don’t necessarily believe in parts of feminist scholarship and organizations? Whether it comes from the drive to ease the suffering of women around you or from the humanist idea that all beings are of equal worth and deserving of having their suffering eased?
Firstly I’m so sorry that your children experienced sexual assault. I wish them both justice and healing.
I typed up a long reply with references that I ended up deleting because it didn’t seem appropriate right now.
I have multiple genuine criticisms of feminism that come from actual feminist scholars about its interaction with the class and power structure, embedding of western imperialistic epistemology in it and others. None of it is because I’m opposed to equity or women’s rights. At the end of the day no philosophy is perfect and the actual practitioners are even less so. That is why it makes sense to talk about it and work on it.
I want to ask are you doing okay friend? It seems like you’re not.
I still have made only a singular point, that someone can prefer the label humanist over feminist despite agreeing with everything feminism might say without being a ‘chud’. You have created strawman after strawman through this conversation, accusing me of conflating man haters with feminists, defending the sexual assault and genocide of Genghis Khan, diagnosing me as being ignorant of what humanism or feminism is, of not caring enough to study either, agreeing with white mansplaining, diagnosing me as having a litany of problems with women and being full of red flags and so on. I’ve tried to engage you from a place of good faith, even after the cruel remark of asking if I were sexually assaulted by women and trying to use that to frame me as a woman hater. You’re fighting something that isn’t there.
I left the original comment because I thought it might make you think that there are real people who don’t fit the categories that have become drivers of the culture war. It pays to listen to each other. Instead it seems like my comments have caused you unnecessary distress and I apologize for that.
Thank you for your kind words. My daughters were both denied justice like so many women. This is pretty normal as only a small fraction of rapes are ever successfully prosecuted. I was always hyper-vigilant with them, but you can’t always be there to protect everyone every moment.
It is not just my daughters though. My wife, my mother, and every women I have had the privilege to talk to about this topic has been sexually assaulted. Often time multiple times throughout their life.
I have worked in CPS and some of the things I have experienced would shake normal people to their core and send them running away. I have been a care coordinator for elders and the stories they tell are equally hair raising. I have worked hand in hand with women shelters and I have seen abuse in the worst ways imaginable.
I totally agree in your situation that you can prefer humanism over feminism without being a chud. Not so much for people who have never bothered to read about either of them.
I will once again point out that they are not the same. Humanism talks in generalities about issues. Feminism explains how and why which is very different than humanism. Humanism does not encompass feminism rather they are distinctly different. Until you recognize this I think you will continue to flounder when discussing your preferences in regards to these two topics.
Feminism has a lot of good criticism out there, but equally humanism does as well. Both have been characterized of relying on western-centric values and being used as a tool instead of a solution to existing power dynamics.
I understand you believe you have tried to engage in good faith. Do you really believe that group of abused women is representative of feminist scholars? I suppose this may be splitting hairs to some people, but not to people who understand these as complex topics that can never be represented by single or even groups of people.
I am probably going out on a limb that someone will be happy to cut, but the majority of people who claim to be feminists really have no foundation in understanding feminism. It is more about identity than a genuine belief/knowledge of the values of modern feminism. This may seem like a no true Scotsman fallacy, but the devil is always in the details.
I’m so sorry that your daughters were denied justice, and that other women in your life suffered similarly. I’m unlucky enough to say that I’m not unfamiliar with being in that position. I understand. Sometimes the injustice and cruelty of it takes your breath away.
I don’t know if you have heard of this but there’s a book that I use as a guide in my life that I often ask people to read when they feel that they’re being asked too much. It is called ‘The boy who was raised as a dog’ written by two child psychiatrists.
Thank you for considering my words kindly. I definitely agree that humanism and feminism are not the same. Neither humanism or feminism are perfect, which is why we need scholarship, discussion and lived experience. Most people sadly try to reach not even one.
They fulfill different purposes. Lived experiences and the day to day fight for justice is different from judicial or feminist scholarship and is no less valid. At the same time frameworks for fighting for individual justice and equity are different from those for the same at the systemic level.
It is also truly connected to the no true Scotsman fallacy as you pointed out. I arrived at humanist umbrella because it encompasses a broader set of intersectionalities that aren’t necessarily the focus of feminist movement or scholarship until recently such as race (which has changed a lot), language, disabilities, neurodivergence, colonialism, religious oppression and other things that are personal to my experience.
I also arrived at it because I found that the feminist social movement, in parts, as a way to maintain cohesion and structure framed the struggle partly as a conflict with an out group and individual moral failing, often implicitly, which is antithesis to the decidedly non-western moral ethos that I come from. This is not necessarily reflected in the scholarship or formal frameworks. The sad reality is that people took labels and analysis that were supposed to be descriptive and started using them in a prescriptive fashion, which caught on, and as you said very few people cared to look at the original sources.
The lack of categorisation and acknowledgement of universal worthiness is what attracted me towards humanism. To me it is valuable because there is no humanist tribe.
It all circles back to the Scotsman, is fighting for justice and equity for women feminism if you don’t necessarily believe in parts of feminist scholarship and organizations? Whether it comes from the drive to ease the suffering of women around you or from the humanist idea that all beings are of equal worth and deserving of having their suffering eased?