I live in India and I am pretty poor, I hope to be middle-class/upper-middle class someday, but I have noticed something sinister from some people who are extremely privileged, they can be still be bought with money.
Lack of money makes you desperate, and paranoid, and comparison drives you crazy, hard to be morally perfect as a poor man, but I see actors who have made insane amounts of money on the backs of their Indian fans like Shahrukh Khan, Canada Kumar, Ajay Devgan, Hrithik Roshan and many more who are well-respected in the industry and who still can sell their own fans financial ruin (gambling) or death (Tobacco) in ads. I thought the point of being rich was that you could be more moral, what is the use of getting rich if you use your influence and fame to do more harm than good?
Also, all the actors mentioned above have made numerous movies about patriotism, many in their private conversations like to brag how much they “love their country… blah… blah… blah”, but yet they feel ok selling Tobacco to their fans who made them what they are.
I have a cousin who worships Shahrukh Khan and who took up Pan(Tobacco) because he was naive and because he probably thought it was “cool” since his favorite actor (on whom he has modeled all aspects of his life was selling tobacco), thankfully we were able to get him off that a few years ago, but he spent money like water and he gained worse health for it. He got off easy, many suffered financial ruin or even death. So, when is it fucking enough!? When will these people have enough money?
edit: It’s just not India, it happens everywhere (just watch CoffeeZilla to see more prime examples of this) Also, I am not saying I am perfect, if someone gave me an insane amount of money to sell Pan, I will, judge me if you will. But, I like to think if I had “enough” money, I would be immune to the attractions of blood money, I like to think I can try to be as moral as I can be then, but these people almost make me think that there is never “enough” money.
The rich will never have enough money and we will all suffer to that end.
The rich
willnever have enough money and wewillall suffer to that end.
It never is. It’s the same everywhere too.
I once read on the Internet if you’re dependant on income you are poor. I think that is a perfect definition, because it removes the rivalry between all, well, slaves.
By money count I am possibly rich in direct comparison to you. Yet here I am, requiring income for my family and me to survive alone, additionally being bound by long term costs.
So it’s basically the same for all of us (albeit with different numbers and different conditions) except for a handful who can do what they want.
If you’re interested in details in my case hit me up by pm.
People can be satisfied and have enough, but those people are generally not CEOs or famous actors. Read @[email protected] comment for someone who thinks they have enough money
I don’t disagree but the odds are heavily stacked against this. The whole system is based on performing better and growth, driving this.
Hence even if you’re satisfied, it won’t be enough for long…
Epicureanism teaches that you will never have enough money, enough fame, enough influence, so chasing after those will never make you happy. Instead, you should focus on fulfilling your needs and fixing problems in your life, getting enough to eat, enough sleep, surrounding yourself with friends and enjoying the small things in life. When you’re unburdened by needs, you reach long-lasting happiness.
So to me, that means earning enough to fulfill your needs is enough, especially if you don’t have to worry about losing your job any time soon
Oooh look at Epicure over here, just casually getting in his 8 hours of sleep. Brag more king.
On a serious note, the capitalists have commercialized all of this. Getting enough to eat might be doable with a meager income technically, but eating well and healthy is expensive. Getting a good bed in a nice living space that facilitates rest well costs a fortune. So you need two middle class plus jobs to afford it for yourself and your partner, which comes with its own set of stressors.
The small things in life are also actively commercialized. A coffee with friends? Better save up for the chain cafe prices. A movie night in? Remember to pay your Netflix subscription. A hike? Gotta pay for gas to get there, depending on where you live. I’m not saying it’s impossible to have small things for free/cheap, it’s just not that easy. There’s also going to be constant social pressure, through advertisement or influencers, first or secondhand, to do all the things they tell you will make you more happy. You’ll have to actively resist that, which in turn can cause you to become distanced from your social circle.
God forbid you get sick, the health insurance and pharmaceutical industry will fleece you and in some countries leave you with crippling debt, making all of the above out of reach for you.
All of this to say: money isn’t just something you have to chase after for the sake of it in our current society, it’s an absolute necessity to try to have more than what you think you actually need in the moment to get by and enjoy the small things. It might sound cliche, but “society is like stacked against us, man” is actually a completely true statement.
Epicureanism
Word nerds spell ‘lagom’ weird.
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You get to define your own sense of what “enough” money is. Many people will never have enough.
The philosopher Diogenes was sitting on a curbstone, eating bread and lentils for his supper. He was seen by the philosopher Aristippus, who lived comfortably by flattering the king. Said Aristippus, “If you would learn to be subservient to the king, you would not have to live on lentils.” Said Diogenes, “Learn to live on lentils, and you will not have to cultivate the king.”
I like to reference Maslows Hierarchy of needs for a different perspective of personal value.
I learned this the hard way for myself.
I’ve lived on the street defending myself against violence, and growing gnawingly more hungry every day, and dealing with sleep deprivation from always being moved along.
I’ve also been a senior software developer at a company that broke promises to me, and I smiled and ate that shit for the money and also to “grow up” and be less naive and idealistic. Also, I started breaking promises to them too.
When I lived on the street I was happy and whole, despite the discomfort. When I was working that dev job I went to the hospital twice with stress-related issues I thought were going to kill me, and separately, shelled out over $7k on neurofeedback training to reduce my beta wave amplitude and cut down on my panic attacks.
That learned me good. I am done sacrificing my integrity for any material comfort. It simply does not work. My body was suffering despite the cushy conditions around me. I was uncomfortable in my own skin, and not in a trivial way. I was fucking ill from that.
Long story short, I realized the reason to stand up and face the cavalry is that it hurts less to die fighting than it does to die running away.
There’s nothing wrong with the lesson here but this sounds fake. Those are the two most superficial stereotypes of class life with no explanation how you bridged that gap. There is a big jump in happiness when you no longer have to worry about making ends meet. From there, you just have to not get caught up in consumer envy.
But hey this is the internet so who knows
Well I’m sorry it sounds fake. Stories about my life often do because I have a weird combinaron of characteristics that lead to weird situations, leading to a density of adventures that most people find simply unbelievable.
Also, if it’s fake there’s definitely something wrong with the lesson. Nobody should be making shit up to teach lessons. Lessons need to come from the truth.
Yep, money can buy you the bottom tier and a half of that triangle. Everything above that is up to you.
I think “enough” is when you don’t have to worry about water, food and shelter.
I have roughly enough to pay for these things, a little more, can get internet and a few euros each month for random luxury stuff.
I earned more before, but I reduced the hours in my job severely so I get to this money state. I like the reduced hours more than having more money.
So yeah for me, idk what everyone’s talking about, there’s definitely an “enough”. Of course, more is also “nice” but “enough” is when you survive with a little bit over.
Of course, like others say, for most people there is not an “enough”, they keep wanting more. It depends on the individuals. I have a bunch of friends who are friends because they think like me. But I can’t be friends with most of the population because they can’t get enough.
Famous people are mostly famous exactly because they can’t get enough. No one works that much, tries to acquire status that much, if they are satisfied eventually. Because when you would be satisfied, you stop chasing more fame, not getting to a level that we would call “famous”.
I’d add access to medical health and physical safety.
You’re absolutely right. I live in a country of socialized healthcare so it’s easy to forget how important it is.
So do I. But unfortunately, even here, not all places offer actually decent LGBT+ safety and affirming healthcare. And as ally I think that that’s terrible.
Part of the problem is that most people will spend most of their time around people of a similar wealth level. They will therefore always be around people richer than themselves and generally see less people that are much poorer (at least in a personal context).
This means that ‘rich’ people don’t feel rich. (Unless they are self aware enough to realise it). It also means that your references for morals etc are now other rich people rather than ‘normal’ people (although it’s normal to them!)
Therefore, they always want to acquire more money, and their references for how to go about that are the richer people who have already done similar things.
IMO: Not having to worry about money.
Bonus points if you could easily absorb being jobless for 1-2 years while not making any compromises.IMO: Not having to worry about money.
‘enough’ is massively subjective. Not worrying about money is also very personal.
In America, where people need to sell their house for medical costs - even with a ‘good’ insurance plan - I don’t know any number would free me from worry.
That’s where the bonus points come in. Ability to easily absorb 1-2 years being jobless wirhout compromising in your living style.
I think the only way to have “enough” money is to practice gratitude. Being poor is defined by stress, of course; I am not gonna tell you that your problems are all in your head. But when you get a better paying job, it’s easy to thoughtlessly spend more money and still end up feeling poor. So, don’t just excitedly spend all that money. Take a good look at what you appreciate about your current life and what you are proud of, and do what you need to cultivate these good things. Sometimes it is surprising how many of those things are free. Sometimes they need a bit of money to grow.
The other thing is that each time you cross a moral line, it gets easier to do so again. This is why i do not drink and will never drink. I think the same goes for accepting sponsorships from tobacco companies and other kinds of corruption. And of course being rich naturally shields you from the consequences of these decisions if you let it.
I consider myself rich. This is how i have quantified it
- Rich enough to avail public transport
- Rich enough to eat home-cooked meals (enough time to purchase the items as well)
- Rich enough to spend time on the gym to improve my health
- Rich enough to spend time on my hobbies (gaming)
- Rich enough to have spare time to spend with my loved ones
- Rich enough to afford a nationalized healthcare plan
- Rich enough to plan a investment technique so that I can retire peacefully
I am extremely privileged. Sometimes I wonder if I even deserve it. I don’t think i will require any more money at this point. But people around me will call me middle-class because i’m not hustling enough. I don’t care to be honest; i’m at peace.
My standards are a bit lower than yours (I don’t mind public transport because it’s good enough for my needs) but other than that, I am now realising how privileged I am. By standard social definitions, I’m a broke student, but looking at it from this point of view, I’m one of the richest people I know.
By standard social definitions, I’m a broke student
This, i believe, is one of the biggest faults of society/social media which is not discussed enough. We are always chasing an unreachable goal of success which makes us constantly depressed.
I don’t mind public transport because it’s good enough for my needs
I mostly use public transport other than scenarios where it’s just not feasible (catching a flight at 6-7 am). What I meant to say is that I am fortunate enough to be in an area which has good public transport.
Greedy people are more likely to end up wealthy. Greedy people are also more likely to end up doing ethically dubious things.
Of course, any wealth at all is unethical if you’re being honest with yourself. There’s a famous passage in the Bible.
Jesus was out teaching his disciples or healing people- whatever he did. And a rich man comes up to him and asks
“Jesus, I want to follow you and go to heaven. Please tell me what I should do”
What did Jesus say? Jesus told him to a) sell all of his shit b) give that money to charity c) physically follow me around
What did rich guy do? Have an epiphany about morality and living the good life?
No, he cried. He cried because he didn’t actually want to let go of the good things he had for morality.
All of us in first world nations are guilty of this to some extent. The way our world is shaped you essentially have to be unethical to survive. There are levels to it, of course. But I think your perspective is too black and white and needs a little nuance. Seem like a teenager.
I don’t think all wealth is unethical, but it’s certainly easier to get money by being unethical
I learned earlier today that paywalls are inversely associated with scams happening.
That tells me that scamming is one of the least profitable economic activities.
Uh… am I missing something? Wouldn’t the need for a paywall imply that without a paywall the non-scam site is doing worse financially?
Jesus saying that did not mean that it is unethical to be rich. The reason it’s hard for a rich man to enter heaven is the rich man can afford endless distractions from facing the hard problem of his own suffering.
Poor people are more likely to encounter circumstances that they cannot survive without adapting. The ultimate adaptation to difficulty is when you find bliss in the struggle. You enter the kingdom of heaven after transcending ordeals.
Rich people don’t transcend ordeals they just sidestep them.
Basically rich people don’t have a cross. Well, they can have one, but it comes harder. They live cushy lives that don’t require entering heaven just to survive.
Same reason Gautama had to go be a monk before he could be attain enlightenment. You basically don’t take the problem of suffering seriously enough to solve it, unless your suffering is great. A rich person’s suffering is the leaky roof that never collapses. A poor person’s suffering is a collapsed roof, which forces action on learning how to build a new, perfect roof.
I think acquiring money can be an addiction, in the sense that it’s a behavior that allows escape (it’s a simple goal that’s easy to define, allowing a person to stop looking around and just go forward). Just like video games provide an orienting direction, hence provide dopamine, hence can be addicting, money can do the same thing.
Because money is a number, it’s inherently gamified. You can just set “more money” as the objective and you never have to change it and it’s always a direction to go that can produce dopamine.
Now, if it’s not the best, most meaningful direction. the dopamine flow decreases but doesn’t stop. Just like the video games getting boring, or your brain adapting to the cigarettes or cocaine. You still get a little jolt of dopamine, but not as much as before, so it’s this tired, boring life.
The thing is, there’s a lot of uncertainty and withdrawal and relearning you have to go through to get away from the repetitive small-hit dopamine cycle and into the more organic, less repetitive, large-hit dopamine cycle of … being a real person doing valuable things.
So yeah. Money as addiction. Source of small dopamine hits, that are easier to obtain and more familiar and hence comfortable, than the messy and uncertain process of seeking dopamine through real-world accomplishment.
ALSO, there’s the problem of how markets work. When a person is relative low in the market structure, their only way of getting profit is to really produce a lot of value. The higher a person gets in that structure, ie the more they advance financially, the less value they’re adding. The ultimate asymptote they approach is when they have sufficient money to live on the interest, and it’s totally automatic, and their contribution to economic value is zero.
This means that as a person follows the path (one of many paths) from worker to entrepreneur to pretty bourgeoise to elite, they steadily lose the natural, organic meaning that comes from actually providing value to others.
The person who used to love and be sustained by the smiles and appreciation of their coffee customers, probably isn’t getting much juice out of sitting there looking at spreadsheets of their 5000-coffee-shop empire.
But along the way, they’ve already switched their dopamine source to be from a combination of value provided and money received, to be just the money.
Which is like sitting there lighting up a cigarette to stave off the discomfort for another hour, or to prevent having to think about something that makes you anxious or uncertain. Just light up a smoke: dopamine.
Just like me with this damn website. Addicted. Small dopamine hits, comfortable stand-in for actual meaning.
Nice points here!
I don’t think any amount of money is enough. This is what happens when we live in a society that relies on material wealth as a source of validation instead of a means to fulfill our basic needs.
It’s harder to think about “enough” in places like India (or even the US) where there is so much inequality.
But I would define “enough” as comfortable. Not worried about bills, buying whatever groceries you want, a good living situation and enough cushion that an emergency won’t make you homeless.
The addiction to more, more, more is a disorder like hoarding is.
When I am immune to the thoughts of questioning my finances
I would say that never goes away, but when the decisions change from “house or food” to “camper or boat” etc.
Everyone is here talking about how no money is enough and everyone is really greedy, but I’m not so sure. Have a look at modern philosophies around financial planning and you will find a TON of people living within their means and using their financial wealth to live closer to their values. The FIRE movement and “Finding and funding a good life” come to mind.
I have a work colleague that earns roughly three times my income, but is constantly crying poor and is in a lot of debt and has very little spare money. However, this person also has huge amounts of subscriptions, gets Uber Eats all the time and is purchasing luxury items that are just not required.
There is no frugality in this person’s life at all that I’m able to see though I’m not privy to the intricate details of their finances.
I think your point is spot on. If you’re earning even a modest amount of money for your countries standards, and you are frugal and you enjoy being frugal, but still giving yourself the things you like and enjoy, then you can probably live a quite a good life.
Of course, there are so many variables here. This is quite a blanket statement.
But still, with this person earning three times that I earn, I am living a very comfortable and carefree life in comparison.
