don’t forget to skip the avocado toast

Hmmm perhaps I wasn’t totally clear. I have never claimed Kamala ran a great campaign. Or that her and the Dems did a great job engaging a very vocal part of the party concerned with what’s happening in Gaza or the US’s policy in Gaza.

I have however been attempting to consistently argue that 1) they had a LOT of other constituencies to court so it was never as simple as “Gaza policy bad = lost election; Gaza policy good = win election”, 2) the general election protest vote (or abstention) is going to find out here fairly soon if their protest was worth it once Trump takes office and 3) That so far, Trumps rhetoric SINCE THE ELECTION, and his appointment choices are not giving great indications that he intends to do anything to stop the dying of innocents.

But we might just find out that the most recent developments concerning a cease fire agreement preempts us all Finding Out just what Trump might do in Gaza.

Not an apples to apples comparison of primary elections and general election. Regardless that isn’t an argument against my point that an 11% undecided vote is hardly a “fairly significant public statement”. The point you’re addressing is if I said 11% hardly made a difference. Which I didn’t.

Sure I wish we had those votes, though I don’t think “the gaza protest vote” would have won the election for Kamala if it went the other way. Way too many other reasons she lost.

I also hope you don’t find yourself wishing you had those votes go to Kamala as well. Which is to say, I hope you don’t realize the leopard has eaten your face, because that would mean the incoming administration actually enacting policy that moves the needle in the direction of less violence in Gaza.

We’ll both find out the answer in the coming months if it was really worth it or not.

I don’t agree that 11% undecided in the primary is a “fairly significant public statement”, I mean, literally 11% is like, you know, small. Nor does a lack of policy change during the election cycle (which has a lot more factors than just Gaza to consider) immediately mean Kamala wouldn’t be open to changing tactics post election. But we’ll never know because, like I said, Trump won and now we get to find out if voting for him was net good or net bad for the Gaza cause.

But I can appreciate the emotional investment you have in “both sides-ing” this and ignoring the material differences between a narcissist that is already talking about lifting arms restrictions to Israel and Kamala.

Weather you agree with me or not is immaterial. On the issue of both parties being the same, you’re wrong. See how easy that is to say and it means nothing to an actual debate?

-Cheers

I didn’t ask which has the different policy now (ignoring my opinion about the truth of your assertion) but which is most likely to be responsive to public opinion; and I’d add, which one actually cares about the plight of others and which is an unofficially diagnosed narcissist.

But I’m fairly certain we won’t agree and sadly we’ll never know what Kamala coulda/woulda done. But with trump we’re about to Find Out. I hope we’re both wrong about him.

Exactly.

And the real irony is that of the two candidates, which one is most likely to respond to post-election pressure to adjust the policies?

Sure sure sure, Trump can be influenced by money and flattery, but the people that are going to pay and flatter him are not exactly the ones arguing to save the lives of innocent civilians.

So the irony remains, of the two candidates to choose from, the people complaining about what is happening in Gaza picked the one least likely to do anything helpful once elected (“do” as opposed to what they said to get elected).

at least 35 syllables long and you’ll forget what your reading halfway through the word.

Please remember this statement when we see what exactly the Trump admin does to stop the genocide.

It is possible for two things to be true at the same time. Sure Kamala might have lost for the reasons you suggest. And it can also be true that another group is about to Find Out what Trump is going to do. Just the last few days alone are giving a lot of evidence that the Palestinian people are not going to be better off with Trump in office.

As for it not being strategic, well, that depends if you think the strategy was ONLY to win the election as opposed to trying to do what he thought best in a horrific and complex situation; and ONLY if you think there was an alternative course of action that would have actually won the election.

I’m not sure why folks are only hearing, or responding to, the coulda/woulda/shoulda side of the conversation. A side for which I haven’t really disagreed with in spirit, namely yes Biden/Harris surely knew there were electoral consequences to their actions, among other much sadder consequences, but you continue to ignore the actual topic of conversation … What the future holds.

Okay I can take a guess why [shrug] but such is life. Feel free to have one more reply, I’m done beating a dead leopard.

Didn’t say what was or was not moral or the complexity of genocide. I said that diplomacy is much more complex than either side wants to admit when they are emotionally invested (for very good reasons!) in painting the other side of the argument as heartless / savage / inhuman.

Regardless, my central premise hasn’t changed: I hope the whole situation can be brought to a peaceful conclusion as fast as possible with a framework for lasting peace. BUT, I don’t think Trump is the one to make it happen, I don’t even think the US can actually make it happen, and I worry there are a lot of US voters who will suddenly be realizing the Leopard actually ate THEIR face. But hey, maybe Huckabee and Stefanik will decide the Palestinians are real and care about them more than Biden or Harris and Trump won’t lift all military restrictions on Israel on the 1st day in office like the referenced article [shrug] I actually do hope so, but I obviously am not holding my breath.

You’re right I have no more intimate knowledge of his internal feelings than you do. I have however seen enough humanity in him to believe he has more empathy than Trump who has a very well documented history of narcissism bordering on psychopathy.

As for my “care” of his humanity being besmirched, I don’t actually. My issue was with your questionable assertion that he doesn’t care and the implication that maybe (but maybe not) you actually think Trump cares more.

As for his actions as the president of the united states, who has the full weight of international geopolitics, national politics, and an election to consider, I’d say the job is no where near as simple as you’d like it to seem and as much as I hate (or don’t hate but am resigned) to admit it, there is a limit to what the United States can actually do to make a difference in Gaza that might not have other undesirable results.

Not going to debate what Biden (since as VP Harris has no actual power to do anything) has done or not done nor your opinions of what he’s done or not done. I do take issue that you think he doesn’t care, at a human level I just don’t think that’s true. What he’s done to express that humanity given geopolitical realities is the real issue.

But anyone who actually thinks Trump cares at all about innocent life, or anyone’s life but his own, or cares about the legacy he leaves behind may find themselves rethinking that opinion in the coming year.

Now that the election is over, I truly do hope something good gets done. We of course won’t know what Harris could have accomplished, but we’ll certainly know if Trump tries and if he succeeds. Keeping fingers crossed.

ETA: I’ll just drop this here https://www.reuters.com/world/us/muslims-who-voted-trump-upset-by-his-pro-israel-cabinet-picks-2024-11-15/

ahh gotcha. 100% agree! aka FO in full effect haha

I say this with no sense of irony or desire for the fall to happen; but he hasn’t even taken office yet, time will tell [sigh].

I still struggle with the internal conflict of 1) wanting this to all just work out and we come out the other side 4 years from now with our democracy intact, albeit with a lot of changes I disagree with or 2) hoping for stage 2 of FAaFO to unleash the leopards while I laugh and the idiots who voted against their own best interests cry that their faces are being eaten. The human in me really hopes for the former, but the wanna-be-standup-comedian in me has a darker heart.

Time for the 2nd stage of FAaFO for all those that fucked around.

No both sides were not equally bad choices for trying to stop the slaughter of non-combatants.

Action complete. Two more Virginian’s have voted early.

Nothing more satisfying than pulling up to the front door, walked past a LOOOONG line of people waiting to vote “in-person early” to drop my mail-in ballot into a secured drop box at the polling location, then driving off to get some grocery shopping done before the Wegman’s gets too crowded :)

We will. tomorrow is the first day to drop off our mail-in-ballot in a box close to us (the “satellite locations” in VA) but we’re busy. We’ll get it done in the next few days.

Sadly not really. 1995 man, no digital cameras. I think I have one somewhere of me and my buddy in the jet, but it just looks like two dudes sitting ass to nuts on the floor of a plane with a bunch of other people hahah and one of me half dropping trow to show off my hip tattoo in tent city.

Other than the war part of it, where do I sign up?!?!?!

Reminds me of a bi-plane jump I did at the World Freefall Convention in the mid-late '90s in Quincy, IL. Reach up, grab a bar attached to the wing, plane goes inverted, you hang from the wing and then let go. It was as cool AF as you might imagine. Second only to the Hot Air Balloon jump. The Jet was fun because it was a 727 but it felt like any other high and fast jump. But those two? Gold man.