I haven’t read meditations, but from what I have heard he defeats solipsism through an appeal to god. Appealing to a being you have no evidence for it not empirical or logical in my eyes.
It’s been a while since I worked through them myself, but IIRC he does so by observing a sense of continuity in his experience, something a thoroughly evil demon would certainly not allow. He does so by observing the flame of a candle and noticing that it keeps burning more or less undisturbed, turning the hard wax into liquid and eventually consuming it. A thoroughly evil demon obviously would not allow something like this, which gives him reason to believe that either that demon does not exist, or he is at least not thoroughly evil.
There is a difference between being able to perform logic either verbally or to solve a specific situations or puzzle, and actually being logical in general. Plenty of people can act logically in one scenario, then spend most their lives doing the exact opposite.
Right. This is basically what I referred to in my other comment, that logic is a great tool but alone, it is not sufficient in order to live life, and that consequently, there might be value to allowing a certain amount of irrationality to exist. And perhaps this is something that overly rational people (like those with autism) can learn from NT people, who seem to be able to manage to live just fine in a world where not everything is perfectly explainable.
This actually ties well into talking about autistic people, as some of us are highly logical, to the point of seeming unemotional and cold. Others are not rational at all and are highly emotional. I suspect one could theoretically occupy different extremes at different times in their life or under different conditions. As someone who used to be of the more logical variety, I will tell you now that people are not logical entities in general, and treating them as such only made working with them more difficult. I am beginning to think you don’t actually have the people skills to see this.
I’m certainly guilty of clinging too much to rationality as a way to see and explain the world, and insofar you are right – there are skills I am lacking when it comes to dealing with people, and it frequently seems to come down to dealing with their irrational impulses, which often tend to make me anxious or afraid. However, this appears to be an argument for religion if anything – at least to me, it strongly calls to mind Galatians 3:11:
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
If we assume that “the law” means logic in this case, then this is simply saying that you cannot live by logic alone, and you must accept some irrationality in order to make it – in other words, some unproven belief, such as “God not only exists, but He is fundamentally good and does not want me to perish despite all evidence pointing to the opposite at the moment”.
The autistic community has spent some time pushing for identity first language such as saying autistic people instead of people with autism. While I do understand the differences in statements I still don’t really get what you are on about. A lot what you have said has been fairly condescending, using non identity first language, and over-medicalised language that the autistic community has worked hard to get rid of.
Well, like I said before, I cannot promise to never say anything hurtful or offensive, all I can do is ask for mercy when I do, and continue to work as hard as I can on demonstrating that I don’t do so from a place of hatred or ill will. In that regard, I shall take your feedback to heart and simply observe that we seem to have a disagreement here, but I will refrain from pressing the issue.
I really don’t think you understand what special interesests/hyperfixations, stimming, echolalia, and so on are. Those are examples of “restricted interests” and “repetitive behaviors”. I made the same statement repeatedly as a result of you saying things which show your ignorance of neurodivergence in general and the autistic community specifically.
Like I said, I haven’t met anyone with an official diagnosis of autism IRL, so you are probably correct here. All I can say is that I have observed similar behaviors in myself, and that my parents’ occassionally forceful attempts to shut them off hasn’t proven particularly effective, so if I have said anything that might imply that autistic people could simply choose not to do it, I’d like to apologize for that.
See now this kind of makes sense, though this isn’t necessarily the same as how LLMs manifest this. Some autistic people cling to sameness and things they have experience with, and avoid novelty. LLMs can’t avoid novelty, they just don’t always respond well when it happens. There are cases of autistic people using something in a new scenario that worked previously and failing when exposed to novelty, but so do most NT people funnily enough. Everybody has some degree of established coping mechanisms. I would hazard a guess that the reason autistic people are known for it is their choice of coping mechanisms being unusual more than them repeating past strategies and coping mechanisms in and of itself, as NT people are prone to keep using maladaptive coping mechanisms long after they stopped being effective too. Trying to generalize something from a previous situations isn’t illogical either, the illogical part is sticking to it long after it’s clear it’s not effective.
That’s a good point, and it seems to provide some evidence for my suggestion that a perfectly rational world is impossible, because without a source of randomness, we would all be cursed to living entirely predictable lives for all eternity.
Fyi you don’t and can’t overcome autism. It’s an inherent characteristic like being male/female, having a missing leg, being black vs white, etc. It comes down to brain structure and genetics. There is limited medication for autism specifically, but even for labels like ADHD where more medications are effective, they don’t eliminate the condition anymore than giving someone a prosthetic stops them from having a broken leg or covering someone in paint could make them black. ADHD meds also don’t exactly stop all ADHD symtoms, they reduce some for a certain time, but they can also trigger new psychiatric and physical symptoms.
Perhaps you can’t, but does that have to mean you shouldn’t even try? Inasfar as I have similar symptoms, I certainly tend to find them excrutiatingly difficult to bear at times, and I would literally give anything in order to be relieved from them. Therefore I personally find it necessary to ignore such statements in order not to crush my hopes of one day being free from this burden. I’m not suggesting that you have to do the same, all I’m saying is that it works for me.
This why I am saying you are ignorant, and being unintentionally offensive, because even if you have some autistic traits, you haven’t actually spent time interacting with the community or the content and ideas they produce.
That is a valid and fair criticism, and the only defense I have to offer is the point I’ve made above – basically, inasfar as there IS a sense of fatalism within the community (i.e. a belief that “we’ll be stuck with this forever”), I am wont to reject it. And I DO in fact have some valid evidence for this, even if it only comes in the form of personal experience, because I have been able to achieve far more than I ever thought possible as a result of ignoring such thoughts for a while. However, I also ended up paying a heavy price for this, so I’m certainly not going to pretend that I have all the answers, or suggest that anyone follow my example.
You say you have had some strategies for “overcoming” problems associated with autism. Aside from this being a very white night type statement to make, I am interested in exactly what you are talking about. There is a fair bit of bad advice out there, and some “medical” treatments that turned out to do way more harm than good over the decades (ABA anyone?). I am somewhat concerned that you could cause damage to yourself or somebody else.
Well, I suppose the best advice I have is to try not to be fatalistic about the situation, but to continually try and look for ways to extract some sort of good from it all, even if it seems excessively difficult at times. Personally, I found that reframing it from identity-based based language (i.e. “I am autistic”) to non-identity based statements (i.e. “I have a disease called autism”) helps me in that regard, especially since “disease” can further be reframed as “dis-ease” (i.e. something that merely indicates having difficulty instead of impossibility). If that doesn’t align with the current medical advice, then I apologize for getting your hopes up, and if that further means you won’t be interested in continuing a conversation, I totally understand, and will additionally apologize for wasting your time.
It’s been a while since I worked through them myself, but IIRC he does so by observing a sense of continuity in his experience, something a thoroughly evil demon would certainly not allow. He does so by observing the flame of a candle and noticing that it keeps burning more or less undisturbed, turning the hard wax into liquid and eventually consuming it. A thoroughly evil demon obviously would not allow something like this, which gives him reason to believe that either that demon does not exist, or he is at least not thoroughly evil.
This is more picking apart the particular framing than actually addressing the problem of framing. Maybe the demon isn’t evil but constructing a simulation for your own good or for the good of others. Who knows you could even be the dangerous/evil one in this scenario. Maybe the simulation is a way to keep you contained while still having some kind of life.
Perhaps you can’t, but does that have to mean you shouldn’t even try? Inasfar as I have similar symptoms, I certainly tend to find them excrutiatingly difficult to bear at times, and I would literally give anything in order to be relieved from them. Therefore I personally find it necessary to ignore such statements in order not to crush my hopes of one day being free from this burden. I’m not suggesting that you have to do the same, all I’m saying is that it works for me.
I am curious what kind do symptoms you are talking about? I haven’t had anything that problematic that’s completely attributable to autism. In fact a lot of problems I have had could be other disorders I haven’t been diagnosed with yet, or are attributable to the situation and world I have found myself in. I’ve had to deal with a lot of immature people and assholes in my time, and some people who were honestly suffering and couldn’t help themselves, so ended up making it other people’s problem (intentionally or otherwise). Sure that’s might be easier for a neurotypical to deal with, but that doesn’t mean I am at fault or that autism is the problem there.
It also sounds like you could be masking here. Masking isn’t a great strategy and could be part of the reason you are suffering. You may want to read up on this phenomenon for your own good. Being able to “overcome” (i.e. suppress) a symptom for a given length of time isn’t really evidence that you have found a way to beat autism, any more than walking on a broken leg heals the broken leg, it just makes it worse in the long run.
Well, like I said before, I cannot promise to never say anything hurtful or offensive, all I can do is ask for mercy when I do, and continue to work as hard as I can on demonstrating that I don’t do so from a place of hatred or ill will. In that regard, I shall take your feedback to heart and simply observe that we seem to have a disagreement here, but I will refrain from pressing the issue.
I’ve done and said things thay are also ignorant or bigoted before. It’s not like I am claiming to be perfect in any way. The important thing is realising when you have made mistakes and doing better next time. Saying nuh uh that isn’t bigoted, and also I hate that word, then doubling down isn’t a good thing. Maybe you don’t do too well learning that maybe your the bad guy. Which isn’t really even the case, it’s not your fault you weren’t educated on these things very well. In fact a lot of this conversation makes me think “the system” and probably your parents too have failed you big time, and that you need some kind of help.
I think you haven’t had the kind of support, education, and therapy you need as many of the undiagnosed haven’t, and that you might want to go and do something to rectify this.
This is more picking apart the particular framing than actually addressing the problem of framing. Maybe the demon isn’t evil but constructing a simulation for your own good or for the good of others. Who knows you could even be the dangerous/evil one in this scenario. Maybe the simulation is a way to keep you contained while still having some kind of life.
Well, the impression I had was that even just proving that the demon (if he indeed existed) wasn’t entirely evil was already enough to dispell him completely, and here’s why:
Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the demon IS thoroughly evil and simply allows you to have a short experience of continuity because he enjoys the sadistic pleasure of you getting your hopes up only to crush them again when he removes it. Would that not be a torture worse than complete uncertainty and delusion?
On first examination, one might say yes, but then again, even if that candlelight is all you ever get, it’s certainly better than eternal darkness or terror. So as frustrating as the situation might be IF that was all you’d ever get, I’d argue that the sadism is less evil than no continuity whatsover. A perfectly evil demon could certainly not allow this to happen, because each time you have that experience, you could use it to illuminate more of his work, and pretty soon you might end up kindling a fire big enough to dispell him entirely, at least for a while.
And isn’t life kinda like that, ulimately? Some days you suffer and others you can’t do no wrong, some days you’re at peace and others you’re at war. But even the most blessed among us aren’t spared hard times, and the best you can hope for is to receive pain and pleasure in equal and managable proportions.
I am curious what kind do symptoms you are talking about? I haven’t had anything that problematic that’s completely attributable to autism. In fact a lot of problems I have had could be other disorders I haven’t been diagnosed with yet, or are attributable to the situation and world I have found myself in. I’ve had to deal with a lot of immature people and assholes in my time, and some people who were honestly suffering and couldn’t help themselves, so ended up making it other people’s problem (intentionally or otherwise). Sure that’s might be easier for a neurotypical to deal with, but that doesn’t mean I am at fault or that autism is the problem there.
My biggest issue by far has been social interaction, which never really came easy to me. I often either miss social cues entirely or misinterpret them, and I have a strong tendency to overanalyze, as well as occasionally blurt out inappropriate things. In particular, I seem to have a knack for pointing out things that people don’t want to hear (as perhaps you might have noticed) – and it’s often not so much that they are fundamentally untrue, but that they require a generous amount of diplomacy to communicate without coming across excessively offensive.
It also sounds like you could be masking here. Masking isn’t a great strategy and could be part of the reason you are suffering. You may want to read up on this phenomenon for your own good. Being able to “overcome” (i.e. suppress) a symptom for a given length of time isn’t really evidence that you have found a way to beat autism, any more than walking on a broken leg heals the broken leg, it just makes it worse in the long run.
Yeah, that’s very likely the case, because my parents were unfortunately not particularly helpful in coaching me towards better social behavior. They often took just as much offense at my words as random people did, and instead of teaching me how to make my points in a more measured or diplomatic manner, they would simply tell me not to talk like that at ever, period.
It’s taken me a long time to realize that this self-censorship wasn’t very helpful either, and even longer to dig out my original personality from underneath the rubble in order to find ways to communicate more honestly, but without repeating the mistake of simply blurting it out. It’s an ongoing project for me, and this conversation is hopefully a good testimony to that.
I’ve done and said things thay are also ignorant or bigoted before. It’s not like I am claiming to be perfect in any way. The important thing is realising when you have made mistakes and doing better next time. Saying nuh uh that isn’t bigoted, and also I hate that word, then doubling down isn’t a good thing. Maybe you don’t do too well learning that maybe your the bad guy. Which isn’t really even the case, it’s not your fault you weren’t educated on these things very well. In fact a lot of this conversation makes me think “the system” and probably your parents too have failed you big time, and that you need some kind of help.
I appreciate you for saying that. And yes, my parents probably did fail me, but everyone’s parents eventually do. In my case, it unfortunately was compounded by the fact that my whole extended family, as well as their church (which should have acted as a secondary support sytem) failed me as well. Perhaps society did, too, but at that point in time I did not want to risk being disappointed again so I did not even try to rely on them for support.
I think you haven’t had the kind of support, education, and therapy you need as many of the undiagnosed haven’t, and that you might want to go and do something to rectify this.
You’re probably right, but I honestly wouldn’t even know where to start.
It’s been a while since I worked through them myself, but IIRC he does so by observing a sense of continuity in his experience, something a thoroughly evil demon would certainly not allow. He does so by observing the flame of a candle and noticing that it keeps burning more or less undisturbed, turning the hard wax into liquid and eventually consuming it. A thoroughly evil demon obviously would not allow something like this, which gives him reason to believe that either that demon does not exist, or he is at least not thoroughly evil.
Right. This is basically what I referred to in my other comment, that logic is a great tool but alone, it is not sufficient in order to live life, and that consequently, there might be value to allowing a certain amount of irrationality to exist. And perhaps this is something that overly rational people (like those with autism) can learn from NT people, who seem to be able to manage to live just fine in a world where not everything is perfectly explainable.
I’m certainly guilty of clinging too much to rationality as a way to see and explain the world, and insofar you are right – there are skills I am lacking when it comes to dealing with people, and it frequently seems to come down to dealing with their irrational impulses, which often tend to make me anxious or afraid. However, this appears to be an argument for religion if anything – at least to me, it strongly calls to mind Galatians 3:11:
If we assume that “the law” means logic in this case, then this is simply saying that you cannot live by logic alone, and you must accept some irrationality in order to make it – in other words, some unproven belief, such as “God not only exists, but He is fundamentally good and does not want me to perish despite all evidence pointing to the opposite at the moment”.
Well, like I said before, I cannot promise to never say anything hurtful or offensive, all I can do is ask for mercy when I do, and continue to work as hard as I can on demonstrating that I don’t do so from a place of hatred or ill will. In that regard, I shall take your feedback to heart and simply observe that we seem to have a disagreement here, but I will refrain from pressing the issue.
Like I said, I haven’t met anyone with an official diagnosis of autism IRL, so you are probably correct here. All I can say is that I have observed similar behaviors in myself, and that my parents’ occassionally forceful attempts to shut them off hasn’t proven particularly effective, so if I have said anything that might imply that autistic people could simply choose not to do it, I’d like to apologize for that.
That’s a good point, and it seems to provide some evidence for my suggestion that a perfectly rational world is impossible, because without a source of randomness, we would all be cursed to living entirely predictable lives for all eternity.
Perhaps you can’t, but does that have to mean you shouldn’t even try? Inasfar as I have similar symptoms, I certainly tend to find them excrutiatingly difficult to bear at times, and I would literally give anything in order to be relieved from them. Therefore I personally find it necessary to ignore such statements in order not to crush my hopes of one day being free from this burden. I’m not suggesting that you have to do the same, all I’m saying is that it works for me.
That is a valid and fair criticism, and the only defense I have to offer is the point I’ve made above – basically, inasfar as there IS a sense of fatalism within the community (i.e. a belief that “we’ll be stuck with this forever”), I am wont to reject it. And I DO in fact have some valid evidence for this, even if it only comes in the form of personal experience, because I have been able to achieve far more than I ever thought possible as a result of ignoring such thoughts for a while. However, I also ended up paying a heavy price for this, so I’m certainly not going to pretend that I have all the answers, or suggest that anyone follow my example.
Well, I suppose the best advice I have is to try not to be fatalistic about the situation, but to continually try and look for ways to extract some sort of good from it all, even if it seems excessively difficult at times. Personally, I found that reframing it from identity-based based language (i.e. “I am autistic”) to non-identity based statements (i.e. “I have a disease called autism”) helps me in that regard, especially since “disease” can further be reframed as “dis-ease” (i.e. something that merely indicates having difficulty instead of impossibility). If that doesn’t align with the current medical advice, then I apologize for getting your hopes up, and if that further means you won’t be interested in continuing a conversation, I totally understand, and will additionally apologize for wasting your time.
This is more picking apart the particular framing than actually addressing the problem of framing. Maybe the demon isn’t evil but constructing a simulation for your own good or for the good of others. Who knows you could even be the dangerous/evil one in this scenario. Maybe the simulation is a way to keep you contained while still having some kind of life.
I am curious what kind do symptoms you are talking about? I haven’t had anything that problematic that’s completely attributable to autism. In fact a lot of problems I have had could be other disorders I haven’t been diagnosed with yet, or are attributable to the situation and world I have found myself in. I’ve had to deal with a lot of immature people and assholes in my time, and some people who were honestly suffering and couldn’t help themselves, so ended up making it other people’s problem (intentionally or otherwise). Sure that’s might be easier for a neurotypical to deal with, but that doesn’t mean I am at fault or that autism is the problem there.
It also sounds like you could be masking here. Masking isn’t a great strategy and could be part of the reason you are suffering. You may want to read up on this phenomenon for your own good. Being able to “overcome” (i.e. suppress) a symptom for a given length of time isn’t really evidence that you have found a way to beat autism, any more than walking on a broken leg heals the broken leg, it just makes it worse in the long run.
I’ve done and said things thay are also ignorant or bigoted before. It’s not like I am claiming to be perfect in any way. The important thing is realising when you have made mistakes and doing better next time. Saying nuh uh that isn’t bigoted, and also I hate that word, then doubling down isn’t a good thing. Maybe you don’t do too well learning that maybe your the bad guy. Which isn’t really even the case, it’s not your fault you weren’t educated on these things very well. In fact a lot of this conversation makes me think “the system” and probably your parents too have failed you big time, and that you need some kind of help.
I think you haven’t had the kind of support, education, and therapy you need as many of the undiagnosed haven’t, and that you might want to go and do something to rectify this.
Well, the impression I had was that even just proving that the demon (if he indeed existed) wasn’t entirely evil was already enough to dispell him completely, and here’s why:
Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the demon IS thoroughly evil and simply allows you to have a short experience of continuity because he enjoys the sadistic pleasure of you getting your hopes up only to crush them again when he removes it. Would that not be a torture worse than complete uncertainty and delusion?
On first examination, one might say yes, but then again, even if that candlelight is all you ever get, it’s certainly better than eternal darkness or terror. So as frustrating as the situation might be IF that was all you’d ever get, I’d argue that the sadism is less evil than no continuity whatsover. A perfectly evil demon could certainly not allow this to happen, because each time you have that experience, you could use it to illuminate more of his work, and pretty soon you might end up kindling a fire big enough to dispell him entirely, at least for a while.
And isn’t life kinda like that, ulimately? Some days you suffer and others you can’t do no wrong, some days you’re at peace and others you’re at war. But even the most blessed among us aren’t spared hard times, and the best you can hope for is to receive pain and pleasure in equal and managable proportions.
My biggest issue by far has been social interaction, which never really came easy to me. I often either miss social cues entirely or misinterpret them, and I have a strong tendency to overanalyze, as well as occasionally blurt out inappropriate things. In particular, I seem to have a knack for pointing out things that people don’t want to hear (as perhaps you might have noticed) – and it’s often not so much that they are fundamentally untrue, but that they require a generous amount of diplomacy to communicate without coming across excessively offensive.
Yeah, that’s very likely the case, because my parents were unfortunately not particularly helpful in coaching me towards better social behavior. They often took just as much offense at my words as random people did, and instead of teaching me how to make my points in a more measured or diplomatic manner, they would simply tell me not to talk like that at ever, period.
It’s taken me a long time to realize that this self-censorship wasn’t very helpful either, and even longer to dig out my original personality from underneath the rubble in order to find ways to communicate more honestly, but without repeating the mistake of simply blurting it out. It’s an ongoing project for me, and this conversation is hopefully a good testimony to that.
I appreciate you for saying that. And yes, my parents probably did fail me, but everyone’s parents eventually do. In my case, it unfortunately was compounded by the fact that my whole extended family, as well as their church (which should have acted as a secondary support sytem) failed me as well. Perhaps society did, too, but at that point in time I did not want to risk being disappointed again so I did not even try to rely on them for support.
You’re probably right, but I honestly wouldn’t even know where to start.