I’ve always thought of agnosticism as being “I don’t believe in Gods,” and atheism as being “Gods don’t exist.” It’s like the difference between saying “I don’t think that plan will work” vs “That plan won’t work.” One leaves room for you to be wrong, while the other doesn’t.
Because I just discovered it on wikipedia I think is worth adding ‘Ignostic’ - the belief that frankly it’s pointless even discussing any of this unless you can first define a deity. Seems bloody sensible to me.
Ignosticism sometimes want you to also define what “to believe” means.
Why? You can see in the comment you replied to.
When you are ignostic it is interesting that you can also be, agnostic and Christian by some definitions and antitheist by other definitions… A schrodinger christian.
There are also some subtle variations in agnosticism.
There’s the soft variety that says “there is no proof that convinces me either way but I won’t rule out that someone could come up with one”.
There’s the hard variety that says “I don’t think it’s possible to prove either way”.
There’s even a variety that says “it doesn’t matter whether (a) god exists or not, hence there’s no need for a proof”.
But yeah, the core of agnosticism is that you don’t believe the existence of (a) god has been conclusively proven or disproven and are unwilling to commit either way without that proof.
Seems like it’s gathered quite a wide definition but this is certainly how I’ve always understood it. If I was to ever start a cult I think it’d be based on militant agnostic fundamentalism.
My understanding was that atheism is the belief that there is no god(s), whereas to be agnostic is the absence of belief one way or another, i.e unable to prove or disprove existence of god(s). With this interpretation it’s more scientifically rational (for whatever that’s worth) to be agnostic than atheist.
The importance of such a distinction doesn’t merit much fuss beyond freshman philosophy though since you get some atheists who are absolutely evil cunts and plenty of genuinely good people of almost all religions.
It’s more like active opposition to a theistic religions. For example many people think that “there’s no gods, and theistic religions are harmful to our society”
and they have just as much evidence as believers
This is very stupid way to put it. If you make a claim, you should provide the proof to support that claim. The claim is that there is a god or several, yet no proof to support that claim, which means that claim is plain made up shit and the logical conclusion “there’s no gods”
You could disprove specific religions making specific claims, sure. But to say there is no god anywhere in the universe of any sort? That is not a claim you can prove.
Now if you want to reframe antitheists as anti-specific theology on Earth, then what you say makes sense. But you can’t both propose a new definition mid-conversation, and then argue that my statement that was based on the first definition is stupid because you’re using the second.
The claim is that there is a god, or multiples of them
There’s no need to claim that there is no god? It doesn’t make any sense to try to prove something like that. A claim requires evidence, extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence.
“there is no god” is definitely a claim. It can be falsified with evidence (in theory. I don’t think such evidence exists).
Perhaps you mean “I don’t believe there’s a god” or “I haven’t seen evidence to convince me there’s a god”? Those aren’t claims. Those can’t be falsified. They’re opinions based on evaluation of evidence.
If you make a claim, you should provide the proof to support that claim.
If your claim is that “there’s no gods,” then you’re making a claim. The assertion that there are affirmatively no gods at all is in fact just as empirically unfalsifiable as the assertion that there is definitely at least one god. In my opinion, the only reasonable position is to not make any claims about the presence or nonpresence of deities in the first place.
Russel’s Teapot is fun, but I prefer Starman’s copy of Treasure Planet on DVD. Do you believe that I have a copy of Treasure Planet in my DVD collection? More importantly, if you answer no, is that the same as believing that I don’t have a copy of Treasure Planet on DVD? I think it would be equally silly to affirmatively assert that I do in fact have a physical copy of my favorite Disney movie, as it would be to assert that I do not in fact have a copy of it. You would have to come to my house and look at my DVD collection before reasonably making such a claim.
There are no proof of god, there’s nothing that suggests that there is a god or gods. There’s only claims from some people that they’ve spoken with one. It’s rather like sasquatch and loch Ness monster. It’s the only logical conclusion that there’s no gods
Do you believe that I have a copy of Treasure Planet in my DVD collection? More importantly, if you answer no, is that the same as believing that I don’t have a copy of Treasure Planet on DVD? I think it would be equally silly to affirmatively assert that I do in fact have a physical copy of my favorite Disney movie, as it would be to assert that I do not in fact have a copy of it. You would have to come to my house and look at my DVD collection before reasonably making such a claim
This funny exercise makes the assumption that I’m too lazy to come visit your house to see if you have that DVD. As soon as I come grab a cup of coffee and a nice piece of sweet pastry with you and check your film collection, I’ll see if you were lying or not.
However, maybe this is the time you tell me that you borrowed the film to your cousin who lives abroad rather than admitting the lie. That’d be what Christians have been doing the past 2 millennias as we have made new scientific discoveries that contradicted priests talks about their DVD collections.
I’ve always thought of agnosticism as being “I don’t believe in Gods,” and atheism as being “Gods don’t exist.” It’s like the difference between saying “I don’t think that plan will work” vs “That plan won’t work.” One leaves room for you to be wrong, while the other doesn’t.
Agnostics are “I don’t know, probably not. It’s impossible to know.”.
Atheists are “I don’t think there’s a god, there’s no proof”.
Anti-theists are “there is definitely no god”, and they have just as much evidence as believers.
Because I just discovered it on wikipedia I think is worth adding ‘Ignostic’ - the belief that frankly it’s pointless even discussing any of this unless you can first define a deity. Seems bloody sensible to me.
…who can’t define a deity?
Ignosticism sometimes want you to also define what “to believe” means.
Why? You can see in the comment you replied to.
When you are ignostic it is interesting that you can also be, agnostic and Christian by some definitions and antitheist by other definitions… A schrodinger christian.
My hot take: If most atheists would use the same definition for God as most Christians do, they would consider themselves as Christians.
And most christians would be considered atheists if they used common atheist definition.
I’d like to hear this definition of god
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/25143640
Self-referencing Lemmy comment? Not as cool as the self-referencing tweet I saw many years ago
Sorry I meant to sent you this reply to someone else with the same question:
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/24471142
There are also some subtle variations in agnosticism.
There’s the soft variety that says “there is no proof that convinces me either way but I won’t rule out that someone could come up with one”.
There’s the hard variety that says “I don’t think it’s possible to prove either way”.
There’s even a variety that says “it doesn’t matter whether (a) god exists or not, hence there’s no need for a proof”.
But yeah, the core of agnosticism is that you don’t believe the existence of (a) god has been conclusively proven or disproven and are unwilling to commit either way without that proof.
Seems like it’s gathered quite a wide definition but this is certainly how I’ve always understood it. If I was to ever start a cult I think it’d be based on militant agnostic fundamentalism.
Ah, interesting. Never heard the term “Anti-theist,” but that does fit the bill a bit better.
My understanding was that atheism is the belief that there is no god(s), whereas to be agnostic is the absence of belief one way or another, i.e unable to prove or disprove existence of god(s). With this interpretation it’s more scientifically rational (for whatever that’s worth) to be agnostic than atheist.
The importance of such a distinction doesn’t merit much fuss beyond freshman philosophy though since you get some atheists who are absolutely evil cunts and plenty of genuinely good people of almost all religions.
Atheism doesn’t make any positive claims. It doesn’t claim to know there is no god. That’s anti-theist.
Atheism makes the negative claim of: none of your god claims has sufficient evidence, therefore I don’t believe them.
Now, individual atheists themselves can say and do whatever. That’s on them.
It’s more like active opposition to a theistic religions. For example many people think that “there’s no gods, and theistic religions are harmful to our society”
This is very stupid way to put it. If you make a claim, you should provide the proof to support that claim. The claim is that there is a god or several, yet no proof to support that claim, which means that claim is plain made up shit and the logical conclusion “there’s no gods”
See also Russell’s teapot
You have no evidence of no god.
You could disprove specific religions making specific claims, sure. But to say there is no god anywhere in the universe of any sort? That is not a claim you can prove.
Now if you want to reframe antitheists as anti-specific theology on Earth, then what you say makes sense. But you can’t both propose a new definition mid-conversation, and then argue that my statement that was based on the first definition is stupid because you’re using the second.
The claim is not “there is no god”.
The claim is that there is a god, or multiples of them
There’s no need to claim that there is no god? It doesn’t make any sense to try to prove something like that. A claim requires evidence, extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence.
I don’t know that to tell you. This seems internally inconsistent.
Yes, “there’s no god” is not a claim, it’s just the logical conclusion from all of this.
It’s like concluding that daddy long legs didn’t evolve from a Chinese dragon
“there is no god” is definitely a claim. It can be falsified with evidence (in theory. I don’t think such evidence exists).
Perhaps you mean “I don’t believe there’s a god” or “I haven’t seen evidence to convince me there’s a god”? Those aren’t claims. Those can’t be falsified. They’re opinions based on evaluation of evidence.
But we’re quibbling over minutia at this point.
If your claim is that “there’s no gods,” then you’re making a claim. The assertion that there are affirmatively no gods at all is in fact just as empirically unfalsifiable as the assertion that there is definitely at least one god. In my opinion, the only reasonable position is to not make any claims about the presence or nonpresence of deities in the first place.
Russel’s Teapot is fun, but I prefer Starman’s copy of Treasure Planet on DVD. Do you believe that I have a copy of Treasure Planet in my DVD collection? More importantly, if you answer no, is that the same as believing that I don’t have a copy of Treasure Planet on DVD? I think it would be equally silly to affirmatively assert that I do in fact have a physical copy of my favorite Disney movie, as it would be to assert that I do not in fact have a copy of it. You would have to come to my house and look at my DVD collection before reasonably making such a claim.
There are no proof of god, there’s nothing that suggests that there is a god or gods. There’s only claims from some people that they’ve spoken with one. It’s rather like sasquatch and loch Ness monster. It’s the only logical conclusion that there’s no gods
This funny exercise makes the assumption that I’m too lazy to come visit your house to see if you have that DVD. As soon as I come grab a cup of coffee and a nice piece of sweet pastry with you and check your film collection, I’ll see if you were lying or not.
However, maybe this is the time you tell me that you borrowed the film to your cousin who lives abroad rather than admitting the lie. That’d be what Christians have been doing the past 2 millennias as we have made new scientific discoveries that contradicted priests talks about their DVD collections.
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