Buddy, the invasion of Ukraine is a bad thing, but I can also recognize that my country literally set the legal precedent Putin cited to the UN when he started it.
You argue that Ukraine is a puppet of the West and spread misinformation about Ukraine being ‘forced’ by the West not to negotiate after the massacres at Bucha were revealed, to my memory. Obviously, those poor helpless Ukrainians would have chosen to submit to genocide if it only wasn’t for the West making them stay in the fight! Please ignore that the West initially offered Zelenskyy evacuation, giving up on the notion of defending Ukraine before it began, and it was only the choice of the Ukrainian people to continue that caused Western aid to enter at all.
And the idea that Putin offered any serious legal precedent for the invasion of Ukraine is fucking nonsense.
Of course citing article 51 is an un-serious legal justification for invading Ukraine. Just as it was when cited for the invasions of Vietnam and Iraq.
Ukraine isn’t a puppet, they aren’t being forced. That’s your framing of what you claim is my position, not what I’ve ever said. They’re doing the rational thing, given the circumstances. But the US is not supporting them out of some principled stance against invading sovereign countries. Multiple people across both the Biden and Trump governments have said, our goal in the region is to exhaust Russian military capacity.
Of course citing article 51 is an un-serious legal justification for invading Ukraine. Just as it was when cited for the invasions of Vietnam and Iraq.
You do fucking realize that most wars have Article 51 cited, precisely because the key component of Article 51 is that conflicts must be reported to the UN with cause, right? You realize there are an average of two citations of Article 51 a year since the 1950s, right?
Of course not. The USA invented citing Article 51 as a magic casus belli button. How could I have been so foolish as to not have seen it.
Ukraine isn’t a puppet, they aren’t being forced. That’s your framing of what you claim is my position, not what I’ve ever said.
You’re the one saying “puppeteer”. Why frame it as either 0% agency or 100%? Clearly there are degrees here. Ukraine is its own actor and the US and it allies are more interested in using their leverage to push against Russia rather than for Ukraine. They can both be true.
Again, look at Afghanistan in the eighties. It too was its own polity. At the same time, US support and arms clearly had a substantial role in how events transpired, with consequences felt far more heavily by the civilians it was supposedly in aid of.
“I didn’t SAY puppeteer, I just said that I saw Ukraine as lacking agency beyond that which is decided for them by The West 🥺”
I never know if people like you actually believe what you’re saying, or if you know it’s bullshit but can’t resist any angle to simp for genocide.
Why frame it as either 0% agency or 100%?
“Well, maybe the Ukrainians don’t want to be genocided a little bit” isn’t really much of a rebuttal to the idea of you being a bootlicker who regurgitates imperialist propaganda.
Again, look at Afghanistan in the eighties. It too was its own polity. At the same time, US support and arms clearly had a substantial role in how events transpired, with consequences felt far more heavily by the civilians it was supposedly in aid of.
“Afghanistan deserved genocide by Russian arms too” isn’t much of a fucking rebuttal either, bootlicker.
No response to the Article 51 issue, I note. Did you decide that was a point a bit too stupid even for you to champion?
I’m not making the points you seem to think I’m making. Don’t know what to say, honestly.
Also, here’s the text of Article 51:
Chapter VII — Action with respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace, and Acts of Aggression
Article 51
“Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.”
Yes? I’m arguing that the United States set a precedent for what wealthy, nuclear-armed states can get away with. We started using the “right of self-defense” as pretext to invade other countries. I don’t see the contradiction you seem to see?
![[despairing laughter]](https://media.piefed.social/posts/56/U0/56U06tladgkKbwy.png){kind=link}
Buddy, the invasion of Ukraine is a bad thing, but I can also recognize that my country literally set the legal precedent Putin cited to the UN when he started it.
You argue that Ukraine is a puppet of the West and spread misinformation about Ukraine being ‘forced’ by the West not to negotiate after the massacres at Bucha were revealed, to my memory. Obviously, those poor helpless Ukrainians would have chosen to submit to genocide if it only wasn’t for the West making them stay in the fight! Please ignore that the West initially offered Zelenskyy evacuation, giving up on the notion of defending Ukraine before it began, and it was only the choice of the Ukrainian people to continue that caused Western aid to enter at all.
And the idea that Putin offered any serious legal precedent for the invasion of Ukraine is fucking nonsense.
Of course citing article 51 is an un-serious legal justification for invading Ukraine. Just as it was when cited for the invasions of Vietnam and Iraq.
Ukraine isn’t a puppet, they aren’t being forced. That’s your framing of what you claim is my position, not what I’ve ever said. They’re doing the rational thing, given the circumstances. But the US is not supporting them out of some principled stance against invading sovereign countries. Multiple people across both the Biden and Trump governments have said, our goal in the region is to exhaust Russian military capacity.
You do fucking realize that most wars have Article 51 cited, precisely because the key component of Article 51 is that conflicts must be reported to the UN with cause, right? You realize there are an average of two citations of Article 51 a year since the 1950s, right?
Of course not. The USA invented citing Article 51 as a magic casus belli button. How could I have been so foolish as to not have seen it.
This you, buddy?
literally right after that:
you really like cherry picking, don’t you?
“I didn’t SAY puppeteer, I just said that I saw Ukraine as lacking agency beyond that which is decided for them by The West 🥺”
I never know if people like you actually believe what you’re saying, or if you know it’s bullshit but can’t resist any angle to simp for genocide.
“Well, maybe the Ukrainians don’t want to be genocided a little bit” isn’t really much of a rebuttal to the idea of you being a bootlicker who regurgitates imperialist propaganda.
“Afghanistan deserved genocide by Russian arms too” isn’t much of a fucking rebuttal either, bootlicker.
No response to the Article 51 issue, I note. Did you decide that was a point a bit too stupid even for you to champion?
I’m not making the points you seem to think I’m making. Don’t know what to say, honestly.
Also, here’s the text of Article 51:
This you, buddy?
Yes? I’m arguing that the United States set a precedent for what wealthy, nuclear-armed states can get away with. We started using the “right of self-defense” as pretext to invade other countries. I don’t see the contradiction you seem to see?