Okay, so as someone with 2 small kids and in the market for a replacement car, the Toyota Sienna is the high mark across available minivans. It being a hybrid was attractive. What do people recommend as an alternative?
What are your actual needs that made you consider the Sienna?
Do you need all the space that a minivan provides, or do you really just need 5 seats and a good cargo area? Because for that, wagons are great and crossovers are fine (admittedly not that many wagons in the US anymore - Mercedes makes the E450 All-Terrain, but that’s, uh, not exactly a Sienna competitor in terms of pricing).
Do you need the raised ground clearance compared to a wagon or sedan? Maybe look at the Subaru Outback, the 2019-2024 model can still be had certified pre-owned and that one is still a wagon and it’s taller than most other wagons. 2025+ it’s a crossover like everything else.
Mazda has been moving upmarket with their newer crossovers. By upmarket I mean they no longer have tiny undersized engines. The new inline 6 ones don’t QUITE match the German offerings in terms of refinement, but they’re much closer than any 4-banger, while still offering pretty great reliability so far - they’ve only been out a few years, we don’t know yet if they’ll last 20 or 30. Do avoid the very early builds of the new models though, 2025 built ones should be fine already. What I love about Mazda is that several years ago, they announced that they were getting RID of touch screens, for safety. That doesn’t mean they don’t have modern screens, it just means you get controls that are easier to use while driving!
But if you really need the rear rows to have as much space as the front passengers, you need a minivan. They’re just so much more practical than crossovers when you’ve got adults sitting in the back rows, especially the 3rd row. I’ve heard great things about the Honda Odyssey. It also has a V6, so maybe the fuel consumption isn’t the best, but it’s powerful and said to last forever. May need a valve adjustment at over 150k miles, which can be done at home. Of course you should also stay on top of oil changes and timing belt changes (every 10 years or 100k miles, whichever comes first, I’d also do the tensioner and other wearable parts around the timing belt every time the TB is replaced, just for peace of mind)
I appreciate the detailed response! Right now I have a 2013 Impreza. My kids are growing fast and I’m not a small guy, though I am a single parent so it’s just us.
My main considerations for the minivan are space (already kid is talking soccer, I lug around equipment for disc golf, general furniture movement), modern safety features, and fuel economy.
I’m certainly not opposed to wagons, have had a few in the past (Camry wagon and subaru legacys), and Subarus always have been good to me. The main reason I had somewhat settled in the sieena was for space and fuel usage. Nothing that Subaru has, has both.
I’ll def have to look into some other options though. I also don’t really like the Sienna aesthetic either haha. But bad looks don’t bother me if the function is there.
A man wise beyond his years (I mean I think he was about 30 at the time, but knew a lot about mechanical engineering and crappy old cars) once told me he had a theory that the better the fuel economy, the higher the long term maintenance costs (we’re talking super long term here though, 20 year old cars often).
Best fuel economy you can get, outside of a PHEV (expensive battery!), is with a diesel. But diesels are more complex to maintain (usually require expensive injectors after 200k-300k km, EGR and DPF can lead to issues, etc) and rare in the US. Then non-plugin hybrids mildly outperform non-hybrid engines, but it’s not by THAT much and also the batteries are kinda expensive. Plenty of older Lexus and Toyota owners have had to replace theirs one or more times by now. Also you guys don’t have a lot of diesels in the US, since fuel is almost free there.
IF you can get something with a diesel engine made by a German company that isn’t VW/Audi, it’s pretty economical and usually fairly reliable (avoid N47 and N57 BMW engines, that generation was bad). But I imagine with two young children, you don’t want to be wrenching away in your spare time, and German cars need to be self-maintained unless you’re loaded.
But consider this: How much of a difference does fuel economy REALLY make? The amount may not be as big as you’d think. Personally I think you’re better off getting a car you enjoy and ignore the fuel economy unless you drive all day every day. My current diesel Audi takes 3 liters per 100 km more than it really should on the highway, but it’s a ton of fun, spacious, and can go off road well enough (A6 C6 Allroad). 33 highway MPG is HORRENDOUS for a vehicle like this, the BMW and Mercedes equivalents with RWD were capable of 50-60 highway MPG if babied. But Quattro is just something else in the snow, it’s a ton of fun. And the real difference to me in terms of fuel economy is like 50 or 60 euros a month, maybe 100 for a busy month.
Minivans there are unfortunately not too many options. Hondas reliable but I remember the minivan lacking some features. There’s the Kia carnival, it’s a very handsome car but it’s a Kia and they don’t have a great track record on reliability. Your final option is the chrysler Pacifica, which I’ve heard good things about. Might be the best option.
I’ve heard bad things about the reliability of the Pacifica, especially the hybrid. Of course it’s anecdotes only, but literally no company in the Stellantis family has a particularly good rep for reliability and I think that’s a pretty bad sign lol
They (as in Mercedes, the company that actually makes the Sprinter) used to offer the Viano in North America as the Metris, but sadly that’s gone now. It was a van below the size of the Sprinter, but more spacious than a minivan.
Mini vans make for more dangerous roads. They reduce safety for everyone else. Buying a mini van is participating in endangering children, same as buying a pick-up truck.
If you make claims you should justify them. Not saying you are right or wrong, but that’s a lot to say without pointing to reasons why, or frankly, what you even mean by that. For instance, how do they reduce safety for everyone else?
Frontal visibility is not where the dangers end. Heavier, larger cars deal more damage in accidents. The longer cars are less maneuverable, which increases the chance of an accident. It makes more car to clip into bikes as well.
Heavier vehicles create more rubber waste byproduct that goes into the air, damaging children’s development more as well, for the more hidden side of damage.
Okay, so as someone with 2 small kids and in the market for a replacement car, the Toyota Sienna is the high mark across available minivans. It being a hybrid was attractive. What do people recommend as an alternative?
Honda
What are your actual needs that made you consider the Sienna?
Do you need all the space that a minivan provides, or do you really just need 5 seats and a good cargo area? Because for that, wagons are great and crossovers are fine (admittedly not that many wagons in the US anymore - Mercedes makes the E450 All-Terrain, but that’s, uh, not exactly a Sienna competitor in terms of pricing).
Do you need the raised ground clearance compared to a wagon or sedan? Maybe look at the Subaru Outback, the 2019-2024 model can still be had certified pre-owned and that one is still a wagon and it’s taller than most other wagons. 2025+ it’s a crossover like everything else.
Mazda has been moving upmarket with their newer crossovers. By upmarket I mean they no longer have tiny undersized engines. The new inline 6 ones don’t QUITE match the German offerings in terms of refinement, but they’re much closer than any 4-banger, while still offering pretty great reliability so far - they’ve only been out a few years, we don’t know yet if they’ll last 20 or 30. Do avoid the very early builds of the new models though, 2025 built ones should be fine already. What I love about Mazda is that several years ago, they announced that they were getting RID of touch screens, for safety. That doesn’t mean they don’t have modern screens, it just means you get controls that are easier to use while driving!
But if you really need the rear rows to have as much space as the front passengers, you need a minivan. They’re just so much more practical than crossovers when you’ve got adults sitting in the back rows, especially the 3rd row. I’ve heard great things about the Honda Odyssey. It also has a V6, so maybe the fuel consumption isn’t the best, but it’s powerful and said to last forever. May need a valve adjustment at over 150k miles, which can be done at home. Of course you should also stay on top of oil changes and timing belt changes (every 10 years or 100k miles, whichever comes first, I’d also do the tensioner and other wearable parts around the timing belt every time the TB is replaced, just for peace of mind)
I appreciate the detailed response! Right now I have a 2013 Impreza. My kids are growing fast and I’m not a small guy, though I am a single parent so it’s just us. My main considerations for the minivan are space (already kid is talking soccer, I lug around equipment for disc golf, general furniture movement), modern safety features, and fuel economy.
I’m certainly not opposed to wagons, have had a few in the past (Camry wagon and subaru legacys), and Subarus always have been good to me. The main reason I had somewhat settled in the sieena was for space and fuel usage. Nothing that Subaru has, has both.
I’ll def have to look into some other options though. I also don’t really like the Sienna aesthetic either haha. But bad looks don’t bother me if the function is there.
A man wise beyond his years (I mean I think he was about 30 at the time, but knew a lot about mechanical engineering and crappy old cars) once told me he had a theory that the better the fuel economy, the higher the long term maintenance costs (we’re talking super long term here though, 20 year old cars often).
Best fuel economy you can get, outside of a PHEV (expensive battery!), is with a diesel. But diesels are more complex to maintain (usually require expensive injectors after 200k-300k km, EGR and DPF can lead to issues, etc) and rare in the US. Then non-plugin hybrids mildly outperform non-hybrid engines, but it’s not by THAT much and also the batteries are kinda expensive. Plenty of older Lexus and Toyota owners have had to replace theirs one or more times by now. Also you guys don’t have a lot of diesels in the US, since fuel is almost free there.
IF you can get something with a diesel engine made by a German company that isn’t VW/Audi, it’s pretty economical and usually fairly reliable (avoid N47 and N57 BMW engines, that generation was bad). But I imagine with two young children, you don’t want to be wrenching away in your spare time, and German cars need to be self-maintained unless you’re loaded.
But consider this: How much of a difference does fuel economy REALLY make? The amount may not be as big as you’d think. Personally I think you’re better off getting a car you enjoy and ignore the fuel economy unless you drive all day every day. My current diesel Audi takes 3 liters per 100 km more than it really should on the highway, but it’s a ton of fun, spacious, and can go off road well enough (A6 C6 Allroad). 33 highway MPG is HORRENDOUS for a vehicle like this, the BMW and Mercedes equivalents with RWD were capable of 50-60 highway MPG if babied. But Quattro is just something else in the snow, it’s a ton of fun. And the real difference to me in terms of fuel economy is like 50 or 60 euros a month, maybe 100 for a busy month.
It’s not exactly a minivan but i like my C-RV
Minivans there are unfortunately not too many options. Hondas reliable but I remember the minivan lacking some features. There’s the Kia carnival, it’s a very handsome car but it’s a Kia and they don’t have a great track record on reliability. Your final option is the chrysler Pacifica, which I’ve heard good things about. Might be the best option.
I’ve heard bad things about the reliability of the Pacifica, especially the hybrid. Of course it’s anecdotes only, but literally no company in the Stellantis family has a particularly good rep for reliability and I think that’s a pretty bad sign lol
A used Suzuki Wagon R. Bumped into somebody with one last year and they were quite happy with it.
My Dodge Sprinter has been extremely reliable, though that’s a full size van, not a minivan
They (as in Mercedes, the company that actually makes the Sprinter) used to offer the Viano in North America as the Metris, but sadly that’s gone now. It was a van below the size of the Sprinter, but more spacious than a minivan.
Mini vans make for more dangerous roads. They reduce safety for everyone else. Buying a mini van is participating in endangering children, same as buying a pick-up truck.
If you make claims you should justify them. Not saying you are right or wrong, but that’s a lot to say without pointing to reasons why, or frankly, what you even mean by that. For instance, how do they reduce safety for everyone else?
You’re thinking of SUV’s, which typically have the flat, giant grill that is hard to see over and is far more likely to kill people on impact.
Minivans typically have a short, sloped front which not only provides good visibility, but also is less dangerous to pedestrians in accidents.
Frontal visibility is not where the dangers end. Heavier, larger cars deal more damage in accidents. The longer cars are less maneuverable, which increases the chance of an accident. It makes more car to clip into bikes as well.
Heavier vehicles create more rubber waste byproduct that goes into the air, damaging children’s development more as well, for the more hidden side of damage.