With liberals advocating for those that work 40 hours a week to not live in poverty, and leftists advocating for everyone to be given the ingredients to live a dignified life.
Why are you trying to reframe this? It presents the liberal argument as being āNo one working 40 hours a week should live in povertyā and the leftist ideology as āNo one should live in poverty at allā. The two are in no way inherently in conflict, and even the title āleftism is bestismā isnāt in this case particularly wrong since the goal of pretty much every liberal movement is at very least broad social protections (a concept so non-controversial that even the democrats give it legislative support).
But why then is liberalism dead? Why is a leftist striking out against a liberal for not supporting their position somehow acceptable in the face of an entire comment section of liberals advocating incremental progress and the 40-hour-week-no-poverty idea as a step in a progressive change? Why are you behaving like thereās people advocating it to stop at 40-hour-week-no-poverty, when nobody is doing that?
Itās a very loose and unintentional reframingā¦ I apologize for not being on a proper keyboard to type it out exactly. We both can see what the image said.
But why then is liberalism dead?
Itās dead in the same way as libertarianism is. Libertarianism, originally coined to describe communists/socialists and used by anarchists, was co-opted by capitalists and its meaning adjusted (completely flipped) to serve their interests.
Liberalism wasnāt redefined in quite the same way, it just became a useless label that serves capitalist interests. The uncorrupted liberal position would be to work towards equality for all now, not just for those that work 40 hours a week.
Why are you behaving like thereās people advocating it stop at 40-hour-week-no-poverty, when nobody is doing that?
Iām pretty sure most modern-day liberals donāt believe that poverty will be eliminated in their lifetimes despite the means being present to do so already. This is why leftists see liberals as gatekeeping progress. Liberals supporting status quo politicians who compromise with fascists isnāt helping either.
Itās dead in the same way as libertarianism is. Libertarianism, originally coined to describe communists/socialists and used by anarchists, was co-opted by capitalists and its meaning adjusted (completely flipped) to serve their interests.
OKAY, thank you. The issue here is indeed that, while you interpret āLiberalā/āLiberalismā to be specifically speaking towards the major liberal political parties (like the Dems), thatās not the common usage (neither is your interpretation of ālibertarianismā being dead - look at the popularity of PCM and the traditional use of ālibertarianismā there as an example of how the term has retained itās original meaning across broad society)
I donāt disagree that the democrats are deeply lacking in progressiveā¦ everythingā¦ but to come and present your interpretation that āliberalsā are all part of a dead ideology because youāve let conservatives co-opt the term as a negative group pronoun and that this is justification to decry how all āliberalsā are gatekeeping progress is ridiculous. Youāre as much a liberal as I am, not as part of the āliberals in gubmentā but as part of a liberal social movement, and a person that agrees with liberal ideas. Good grief, weāre on the same side. The only reason you think thereās an ideological divide between us is that you keep asserting that there is one.
The uncorrupted liberal position would be to work towards equality for all now
(Side note, but do you realize youāre lowkey advocating against improving society here? Why even try for a small improvement, thatās corrupted thinking, if you canāt do everything thereās no point in doing anything!)
The issue here is indeed that, while you interpret āLiberalā/āLiberalismā to be specifically speaking towards the major liberal political parties (like the Dems), thatās not the common usage
No, Iām pretty sure I understand the key tenets and principles of undiluted liberalism. I do not see the Democrats as being liberal (not even close) and I feel that most people who presently roleplay as being a liberal do not understand the ideology or philosophy surrounding liberalism.
The situation with the liberal label is akin to most Christians apparently not knowing what Matthew 25 says - or for that matter effectively not really knowing anything that Jesus said, taught, or stood for in the New Testament. Itās due to propaganda that Jesusā teachings are diluted and manipulated to fuel certain agendas - the same goes for liberalism.
side note, but do you realize youāre advocating against improving society here? Why even try for a small improvement, thatās corrupted thinking, if you canāt do everything thereās no point in doing anything!
False, not my argument. I donāt see anyone truly fighting for anything to meaningfully improve society - who is in power or hopeful to be in power (besides fringe DSA members).
We can advocate for what is within our means - poverty could end tomorrow if we flipped a switch. It isnāt a pipe dream. It could also end for third-world countries in a relatively short amount of time if we supported them in their sovereignty instead of exploiting them in every way possible to sustain first-world society e.g. by providing them reparations for lording over their land and natural resources or reparations for us benefiting from slavery (including child slavery) past and present.
but to come and present your interpretation that āliberalsā are all part of a dead ideology because youāve let conservatives co-opt the term as a negative group pronoun and that this is justification to decry how all āliberalsā are gatekeeping progress is ridiculous.
Again, misunderstanding my arguments and positions. In regards to addressing poverty, if the only thing liberals think is currently reasonable or realistic to advocate for is to provide only those that work 40 hours a week with a decent standard of living, that is gatekeeping progress.
We can advocate for more than that right now. Advocating for more is not in conflict with core liberal principles, itās in conflict with a broken democracy that nobody is interested in saving because it would require facing the massive moneyed influences controlling politics in addition to the big bad Republicans and not compromising on literally everything to the point that absolutely nothing gets done (besides regressive policy that strongly overshadows or reverses progressive policy).
Youāre acknowledging thereās a distinction right there, though. Youāre openly having to distinguish between the term as a concept and the term as youāre using it, a description for a specific group. Thatās my point, that youāre using it to describe a specific group instead of as a label applied to social concepts. You literally are doing this in the sentence explaining how youāre not doing this. Like. I donāt know what I could possibly say that would be a better example than this right here. This is all I have been saying about this point.
If the only thing liberals think is currently reasonable or realistic is to provide only those that work 40 hours a week with a decent standard of living, that is gatekeeping progress.
Sure, but my overall point is that theyāre not doing that, youāre claiming that they are. The āliberalā position being expressed in this thread, and the one Iāve seen expressed everywhere else, is that we should get to where nobody should live in poverty. But, because the big āturn off povertyā switch doesnāt actually exist, and because (to extend the metaphor) thereās an entire army of chuds standing under that switch making damn sure we donāt flip it, we should take what we can get now to reduce the suffering in the world by just a little while we continue to fight for the big goals.
Itās the classic āwin the battle first, then you can win the warā concept but extended to political movements.
Again, misunderstanding my arguments and positions.
Paraphrasing them to highlight how they could be easily extrapolated, thereās no misunderstanding here.
Again, I do understand the nuances of the term liberal as a personal identity/label/grouping and as a descriptor for the ideology or e.g. socially liberal policies.
Youāre right to say that weāre not enemies and that we ideologically and generally want the same things in the end.
we should take what we can get now to reduce the suffering in the world by just a little while we continue to fight for the big goals.
I disagree. We should identify the problem and propose the solution. Democracy is broken and we need to fix it with democracy. All mainstream news is entertainment/propaganda and is doing our society disservice by polarizing us against each other - so we create and incentivize fair media (that delineates fact from opinion and provides relevant context) that highlights all viewpoints equally. Poverty isnāt desirable for society and we already have the means to raise everybody up from povertyā¦ and so forth.
Youāre arguing that youāre actually being strategic to advocate for a lesser policy that doesnāt even approach a solution, but the reality is that itās weakening your ideal in practice and our position at the negotiating table because Republicans (and the people who use them for their gain) wonāt stand for even that lever being pulled.
I want to see Republicans squirm while they advocate for people being homeless, destitute, and without health care. Truly. It would be enlightening for many. People largely do not take joy in seeing others suffer - they are being conditioned to accept or ignore their suffering because they are also suffering and donāt want to lose what they worked hard to achieve.
Youāre right to say that weāre not enemies and that we ideologically and generally want the same things in the end.
Thank you. It gets seriously exhausting trying to explain that sometimes.
I disagree.
āWe should identify the problem and propose the solutionā is not at all in conflict with getting the 40-hours-a-week concept passed. Itās the idea that we canāt do two things at once, that we canāt both advocate for the ultimate goals while passing what can be passed currently, that Iām taking issue with. Why is that being presented as the liberal position? I honestly canāt understand where it comes from - nobody I know of thinks that way, but itās constantly what Iām accused of believing when Iāve been identified as being the wrong sort of liberal. Itās deeply insulting to have your positions dictated to you based solely off the use of a term with multiple potential interpretations like this, and itās just flat-out wrong.
We canāt do everything we should in society, because half of society opposes us rhetorically and ideologically. Some people get too entrenched in that mindset, the democrats are an especially good example, but thereās nothing inherent about political realism that prevents political idealism from co-existing with it.
Why are we even fighting over this, Iāll happily support you while you strive for the big grand goals, are you wiling to support me while I trying to get the little things done along the way? Iām not going to not support the big grand goals either way, to be clear. This isnāt quid-pro-quo, just curiosity.
Itās the idea that we canāt do two things at once, that we canāt both advocate for the ultimate goals while passing what can be passed currently, that Iām taking issue with.
The political reality is that we canāt even achieve what is realistic to even extremely jaded and cynical people. Thatās a major problem and we desperately need a solution to properly address it. Itās distressing and extremely frustrating - it pushes many to hopelessness or worse. It likely pushes many into political disenfranchisement or political apathy.
Why is that being presented as the liberal position? I honestly canāt understand where it comes from - nobody I know of thinks that way, but itās constantly what Iām accused of believing when Iāve been identified as being the wrong sort of liberal.
Identity politics and polarization online is rampant. I apologize if I offended you or misrepresented your position or intentions throughout this exchange. The thing with labels is that it invites stereotyping. People attach their personal experiences and beliefs onto labels. I do my best to see the person Iām talking to past the labels.
I understand the strategy you are proposing, but our democracy is fucking dead if we donāt start talking sense to real people. That means proposing solutions, perhaps compromising at times; but really doing our best to see things clearly and helping others to do the same (regardless of political polarization or labels).
We canāt do everything we should in society, because half of society opposes us rhetorically and ideologically.
ā¦but that isnāt true. 77~ million people voted for Trump and there are over 340 million people in the US (and approximately 290 million US citizens). Many of those 77 million people that voted for Trump would think twice after seeing Matthew 25ā¦
Why are we even fighting over this, Iāll happily support you while you strive for the big grand goals, are you wiling to support me while I trying to get the little things done along the way? Iām not going to not support the big grand goals either way, to be clear. This isnāt quid-pro-quo, just curiosity.
Iāll support you, 100% - with all of my heart. If you messaged me out of the blue and told me how I can directly support a lever being pulled or someone attempting to pull a lever, Iād do my best to do my part in any way that I can.
Will I support those complicit in genocide, who laugh at the notion of having a socialist or progressive perspective if elected? No, Iād rather die (Iām not kidding) than exist in a reality where I consent to any of that with a vote and Iām not sorry if you feel that makes me your enemy. Thereās already not much keeping me here and my health isnāt very good, some project blame onto me for my decision to abstain (and they do frequently), but I donāt regret a damn thing because I wouldnāt be able to live with myself if I voted to support the state in question defending itself against women and children, and defending itself by conquering essentially the entire middle east in their openly expressed plans well before the election.
I believe that our political system is poisoning society to change. Iāll gladly support and vote for somebody who doesnāt laugh at the idea of being a progressive and proposes real change, even extremely watered-down change and very little of it, to boot - as long as they are genuinely and wholeheartedly going to work towards it and make a difference.
Why are you trying to reframe this? It presents the
liberalargument as being āNo one working 40 hours a week should live in povertyā and theleftistideology as āNo one should live in poverty at allā. The two are in no way inherently in conflict, and even the title āleftism is bestismā isnāt in this case particularly wrong since the goal of pretty much every liberal movement is at very least broad social protections (a concept so non-controversial that even the democrats give it legislative support).But why then is liberalism dead? Why is a leftist striking out against a liberal for not supporting their position somehow acceptable in the face of an entire comment section of liberals advocating incremental progress and the 40-hour-week-no-poverty idea as a step in a progressive change? Why are you behaving like thereās people advocating it to stop at 40-hour-week-no-poverty, when nobody is doing that?
Itās a very loose and unintentional reframingā¦ I apologize for not being on a proper keyboard to type it out exactly. We both can see what the image said.
Itās dead in the same way as libertarianism is. Libertarianism, originally coined to describe communists/socialists and used by anarchists, was co-opted by capitalists and its meaning adjusted (completely flipped) to serve their interests.
Liberalism wasnāt redefined in quite the same way, it just became a useless label that serves capitalist interests. The uncorrupted liberal position would be to work towards equality for all now, not just for those that work 40 hours a week.
Iām pretty sure most modern-day liberals donāt believe that poverty will be eliminated in their lifetimes despite the means being present to do so already. This is why leftists see liberals as gatekeeping progress. Liberals supporting status quo politicians who compromise with fascists isnāt helping either.
OKAY, thank you. The issue here is indeed that, while you interpret āLiberalā/āLiberalismā to be specifically speaking towards the major liberal political parties (like the Dems), thatās not the common usage (neither is your interpretation of ālibertarianismā being dead - look at the popularity of PCM and the traditional use of ālibertarianismā there as an example of how the term has retained itās original meaning across broad society)
I donāt disagree that the democrats are deeply lacking in progressiveā¦ everythingā¦ but to come and present your interpretation that āliberalsā are all part of a dead ideology because youāve let conservatives co-opt the term as a negative group pronoun and that this is justification to decry how all āliberalsā are gatekeeping progress is ridiculous. Youāre as much a liberal as I am, not as part of the āliberals in gubmentā but as part of a liberal social movement, and a person that agrees with liberal ideas. Good grief, weāre on the same side. The only reason you think thereās an ideological divide between us is that you keep asserting that there is one.
(Side note, but do you realize youāre lowkey advocating against improving society here? Why even try for a small improvement, thatās corrupted thinking, if you canāt do everything thereās no point in doing anything!)
No, Iām pretty sure I understand the key tenets and principles of undiluted liberalism. I do not see the Democrats as being liberal (not even close) and I feel that most people who presently roleplay as being a liberal do not understand the ideology or philosophy surrounding liberalism.
The situation with the liberal label is akin to most Christians apparently not knowing what Matthew 25 says - or for that matter effectively not really knowing anything that Jesus said, taught, or stood for in the New Testament. Itās due to propaganda that Jesusā teachings are diluted and manipulated to fuel certain agendas - the same goes for liberalism.
False, not my argument. I donāt see anyone truly fighting for anything to meaningfully improve society - who is in power or hopeful to be in power (besides fringe DSA members).
We can advocate for what is within our means - poverty could end tomorrow if we flipped a switch. It isnāt a pipe dream. It could also end for third-world countries in a relatively short amount of time if we supported them in their sovereignty instead of exploiting them in every way possible to sustain first-world society e.g. by providing them reparations for lording over their land and natural resources or reparations for us benefiting from slavery (including child slavery) past and present.
Again, misunderstanding my arguments and positions. In regards to addressing poverty, if the only thing liberals think is currently reasonable or realistic to advocate for is to provide only those that work 40 hours a week with a decent standard of living, that is gatekeeping progress.
We can advocate for more than that right now. Advocating for more is not in conflict with core liberal principles, itās in conflict with a broken democracy that nobody is interested in saving because it would require facing the massive moneyed influences controlling politics in addition to the big bad Republicans and not compromising on literally everything to the point that absolutely nothing gets done (besides regressive policy that strongly overshadows or reverses progressive policy).
Youāre acknowledging thereās a distinction right there, though. Youāre openly having to distinguish between the term as a concept and the term as youāre using it, a description for a specific group. Thatās my point, that youāre using it to describe a specific group instead of as a label applied to social concepts. You literally are doing this in the sentence explaining how youāre not doing this. Like. I donāt know what I could possibly say that would be a better example than this right here. This is all I have been saying about this point.
Sure, but my overall point is that theyāre not doing that, youāre claiming that they are. The āliberalā position being expressed in this thread, and the one Iāve seen expressed everywhere else, is that we should get to where nobody should live in poverty. But, because the big āturn off povertyā switch doesnāt actually exist, and because (to extend the metaphor) thereās an entire army of chuds standing under that switch making damn sure we donāt flip it, we should take what we can get now to reduce the suffering in the world by just a little while we continue to fight for the big goals.
Itās the classic āwin the battle first, then you can win the warā concept but extended to political movements.
Paraphrasing them to highlight how they could be easily extrapolated, thereās no misunderstanding here.
Again, I do understand the nuances of the term liberal as a personal identity/label/grouping and as a descriptor for the ideology or e.g. socially liberal policies.
Youāre right to say that weāre not enemies and that we ideologically and generally want the same things in the end.
I disagree. We should identify the problem and propose the solution. Democracy is broken and we need to fix it with democracy. All mainstream news is entertainment/propaganda and is doing our society disservice by polarizing us against each other - so we create and incentivize fair media (that delineates fact from opinion and provides relevant context) that highlights all viewpoints equally. Poverty isnāt desirable for society and we already have the means to raise everybody up from povertyā¦ and so forth.
Youāre arguing that youāre actually being strategic to advocate for a lesser policy that doesnāt even approach a solution, but the reality is that itās weakening your ideal in practice and our position at the negotiating table because Republicans (and the people who use them for their gain) wonāt stand for even that lever being pulled.
I want to see Republicans squirm while they advocate for people being homeless, destitute, and without health care. Truly. It would be enlightening for many. People largely do not take joy in seeing others suffer - they are being conditioned to accept or ignore their suffering because they are also suffering and donāt want to lose what they worked hard to achieve.
Thank you. It gets seriously exhausting trying to explain that sometimes.
āWe should identify the problem and propose the solutionā is not at all in conflict with getting the 40-hours-a-week concept passed. Itās the idea that we canāt do two things at once, that we canāt both advocate for the ultimate goals while passing what can be passed currently, that Iām taking issue with. Why is that being presented as the liberal position? I honestly canāt understand where it comes from - nobody I know of thinks that way, but itās constantly what Iām accused of believing when Iāve been identified as being the wrong sort of liberal. Itās deeply insulting to have your positions dictated to you based solely off the use of a term with multiple potential interpretations like this, and itās just flat-out wrong.
We canāt do everything we should in society, because half of society opposes us rhetorically and ideologically. Some people get too entrenched in that mindset, the democrats are an especially good example, but thereās nothing inherent about political realism that prevents political idealism from co-existing with it.
Why are we even fighting over this, Iāll happily support you while you strive for the big grand goals, are you wiling to support me while I trying to get the little things done along the way? Iām not going to not support the big grand goals either way, to be clear. This isnāt quid-pro-quo, just curiosity.
The political reality is that we canāt even achieve what is realistic to even extremely jaded and cynical people. Thatās a major problem and we desperately need a solution to properly address it. Itās distressing and extremely frustrating - it pushes many to hopelessness or worse. It likely pushes many into political disenfranchisement or political apathy.
Identity politics and polarization online is rampant. I apologize if I offended you or misrepresented your position or intentions throughout this exchange. The thing with labels is that it invites stereotyping. People attach their personal experiences and beliefs onto labels. I do my best to see the person Iām talking to past the labels.
I understand the strategy you are proposing, but our democracy is fucking dead if we donāt start talking sense to real people. That means proposing solutions, perhaps compromising at times; but really doing our best to see things clearly and helping others to do the same (regardless of political polarization or labels).
ā¦but that isnāt true. 77~ million people voted for Trump and there are over 340 million people in the US (and approximately 290 million US citizens). Many of those 77 million people that voted for Trump would think twice after seeing Matthew 25ā¦
Iāll support you, 100% - with all of my heart. If you messaged me out of the blue and told me how I can directly support a lever being pulled or someone attempting to pull a lever, Iād do my best to do my part in any way that I can.
Will I support those complicit in genocide, who laugh at the notion of having a socialist or progressive perspective if elected? No, Iād rather die (Iām not kidding) than exist in a reality where I consent to any of that with a vote and Iām not sorry if you feel that makes me your enemy. Thereās already not much keeping me here and my health isnāt very good, some project blame onto me for my decision to abstain (and they do frequently), but I donāt regret a damn thing because I wouldnāt be able to live with myself if I voted to support the state in question defending itself against women and children, and defending itself by conquering essentially the entire middle east in their openly expressed plans well before the election.
I believe that our political system is poisoning society to change. Iāll gladly support and vote for somebody who doesnāt laugh at the idea of being a progressive and proposes real change, even extremely watered-down change and very little of it, to boot - as long as they are genuinely and wholeheartedly going to work towards it and make a difference.
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