Some of you have probably seen the blog post a few months ago about how GNOME is more strongly depending on systemd. The changes mentioned there have landed into the latest stable versions of the mentioned software (GNOME 49) and do affect us. In particular, the main culprit is the removal of the non-systemd fallback code in gnome-session. This makes it currently impossible to launch gnome-shell/mutter on a non-systemd system. A fairly straightforward patch of using elogind, like what was previously done, no longer works either.
Since we don’t have the time or interest to write a new non-systemd codepath for gnome-session, this means that all support for gnome-based desktops has to be dropped. In particular, the affected packages would be gnome-session, gnome-shell, mutter, and gnome-settings-daemon. For now, the old versions are still in the repos but because there is so much intertwining between other gtk/gnome packages, there is no guarantee they actually work and will later be removed from our repos.
Standalone gnome applications will still continue to be packaged, but it is simply not feasible anymore to support gnome desktops without systemd.
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So no GNOME on BSD anymore?
If you want GNOME you need a corporate aligned linux-only desktop with all the IBM trimmings? IBM who has been known forever for the poor quality of their code? IBM who pays by the KLOC?
I’m sure all 12 users of artix will be very sad lol
Not really, I’m using kde.
I read as “Arch Linux drops support for GNOME” and my heart fluttered
I did the same but was skeptical since Arch is an only systemd system so there’s no point it would affect Arch anyways
I did the same even though I had seen this headline before
Dang, i knew this was gonna be problematic, but i thought it might’ve been fixable with an elogind type of approach. I don’t use gnome myself, but it definitely sucks if you’re someone who likes using gnome but doesn’t want to use systemd. I’m a Void user myself, so i’m interested in seeing if the Void team ends up making the same decision as Artix.
I feel like Void devs will first wait it out. Perhaps Chimera Linux’ devs will come up with some workaround by then. A possible workaround could be to make Duncaen’s systemd fork official. Though I’m not sure if maintaining 2 init systems would be less work than to patch the systemd API specific stuff.
My understanding is that it is fixable by just implementing a couple of APIs, but Artix barely has the resources to fix their own init system, so they aren’t able to support such compatibility.
I expect that would be the problem. Gentoo very noticeably is still only offering up to 48 in the main repo—not sure whether that’s just normal maintainer lag or someone’s trying to patch it.
Hopefully other software doesn’t follow this path, otherwise it will be practically impossible to run a distro without systemd.
It will keep coming.
For GNOME, I think Chimera Linux is working in something with Turnstile that non-Systemd distros can use to get it working again.
I dug up this link from June, which tells us why they made such a design choice of strong depressing on systemd.
https://blogs.gnome.org/adrianvovk/2025/06/10/gnome-systemd-dependencies/
Funny thing is every open source developer strives to support as many systems and platforms as possible, by following best practices and open standards, GNOME goes backwards.
Ever since gnome3, the project hasn’t recovered from shitty designers making shitty design decisions.
Kinda funny how they gimped their desktop to make it easier for them to support devices other than PCs and over a decade later mobile Linux devices still suck donkey shit.
So they essentially gimped their desktop for no reason. Bunch of morons.
Isn’t systemd that open standard though?
Same with Wayland?
Isn’t systemd that open standard though?
No. It doesn’t support BSD, just for starters, even though most of the established desktop environments originally ran there as well as on Linux. So by definition, anything that relies on systemd can’t “support as many systems and platforms as possible”. And to my knowledge, no actual standards document defining protocols and interfaces has ever been published (although I admit, as an OpenRC user, I don’t pay much attention), meaning that the interface can change without warning. If systemd works for you, that’s fine, but don’t try to build it up into something it isn’t.
I am not knowledgeable enough to answer your question. But if it were an open standard, it would be more like Xorg than Wayland. There is only one X server implementation, just like there is only one systemd implementation.
Here Gnome is kinda like the websites which only work with Chromium based browsers. “Everybody is using Chrome anyways, right?” In a sense it’s also not really systemd’s or Chromium’s fault, that some devs decided to only support their platform.
There is only one X server implementation
That isn’t quite true. There have been several proprietary implementations for non-Linux systems—Apple’s XQuartz was still being maintained as of a couple of years ago, although I don’t know about its current status. Standards documents exist, and anyone can code to them.
what is the argument against using systemd?
It’s a large and very complicated piece of software with a single implementation. It’s practically impossible to fork, so users are forced to adopt whatever changes the maintainers decide to implement. This could include things like forced dependencies (incompatible with mulb libc for example), or other poor design choices (like binary logging, which is very controversial). And it forces its adoption in places that do not want it (as in cases like the one we’re discussing here, where it’s becoming harder and harder for Gnome to be used without it).
I’m not going to argue about whether systemd is good software or not. But the biggest problem with it is that it’s basically a way for Red Hat to exert control over the entire Linux ecosystem.
Think of it like Chrome/Chromium. Everybody naïvely thought we were never be where we are today when it was announced, but look at where we are today. While it’s technically open source and an excellent browser, above all, it’s a tool for Google to exert its control over the WWW, such as disabling adblockers, implementing DRM, deciding which CSS/Javascript APIs should (or should not) be adopted, etc. systemd could very well be Red Hat’s vehicle for imposing similar requirements on desktop Linux.
It does too many things too well.
Slightly off on that, SystemD does too many things as PID1, and there are a lot of attack vectors that come with that. It doesn’t follow the Free Software of ethos of “do one thing, and one thing well”.
it’s quite modular. I would argue that each individual component does follow that ethos
It is lots of modules but not really that modular. There is little concern about working with anything else.
If it were properly modular, systemd would be built from universal components, which could be used by other init systems. But it’s the other way around. Meaning the universal components are created by taking them out of systemd. For example elogind is “extracted” from systemd to be a standalone daemon.
systemd isn’t a pid1; systemd-init is
Compared to what? Most services do not run PID1
It’s not called systemD. It’s just systemd.
systemdeez nuts
My guess (i dont understand it all that well) is that people are less again using systemd, than against a growing dependency on systemd. If something bad happens to it, it could drag down other big elements of the linux ecosystem with itself.
The prob here?
Basically, a stance against IBM, GNOME and FreeDesktop, who want to push SystemD, Wayland, and PipeWire down our throats.
Wayland
I take it you’re against transistioning from X11 to Wayland then?
On two versions of debian on two computers I have tried to use wayland and both times I have had really bad graphical problems and lag/stuttering of multiple visual elements. I’m sure it is fine when it works, but my problem with Wayland is that for whatever reason, it just does not work on my systems.
Each time, this was on fresh installs of the operating system as well, so I have no idea why it doesn’t like me.
I’ve always been against Wayland, and after I tested it, I knew problems immediately rose. My producer did the exact same thing, and realized that it was a bad idea for our workflow. My producer, Neigsendoig, and I have always needed X11 as content creators. We were also willing to try XLibre as well when that became stable.
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“Some of you have probably seen the blog post a few months ago about how GNOME is more strongly depending on systemd.”
“Standalone gnome applications will still continue to be packaged, but it is simply not feasible anymore to support gnome desktops without systemd.”
What I always say when anyone tries to defend systemd but I just get shut down and talked down to because nobody wants to admit systemd lead person is on purpose influencing with flawed and unethical objectives/workflows that undermine actual openness and community efforts. He don’t give af about the community.
