It’s not the only way things can ever get done under any circumstances. But for the guy to say you can remove it and get the same result is BS. And if we’re being real, capital drives some things that collective village action never could, like advances in medicine. And capital drives things on a scale that collective village action never does. Everyone thinks there isn’t enough housing but most of what we have was built with capital, not village collectivism. And we need more, the village needs something done, so where’s that village collectivism? Fact is a village can erect shantytowns in rural India but it can’t out in sewage lines and pour foundations for a new housing project.
Fact is a village can erect shantytowns in rural India but it can’t out in sewage lines and pour foundations for a new housing project.
See that’s funny because when the street my ancestral is on was being built out, that’s literally what happened. The folks building the houses got together and did the sewage lines for the street. This was way before my time, but that’s what my grandpa told me, anyway.
Also this was the 1980s in what was then a soviet republic, so obviously everyone built their own houses, there was no construction company to hire, people were lucky enough to be allocated plots they could build on in the first place.
Cool example. I did think twice before saying a community can’t build a bridge or dam, because I’m sure it has happened. Apparently sewers as well. I’d love to know more, like what they did for equipment and engineers, not to mention sanitation during the project.
I do think that people mustering the wherewithal to provide themselves with essential services in a failing state does say something larger here about the capitalism topic though. In the capitalist US of the 1980s, people didn’t have to band together to provide their own sewers.
It’s cool that these folks did. Does that really show that capital has no benefit? I still don’t think so.
Capital is just a motivator for people not otherwise invested in the project, really. These projects can be done without capital if enough people agree they’re beneficial.
Now, people’s skillsets differ so maybe a village’s folks aren’t enough to take on a project they desperately need - but even then, you don’t need capital to persuade someone from another village to join in and help. You could exchange labor of a different skillset (you help me build X, I help you with Y), etc.
As for equipment - they dug it with shovels, literally. It’s not a long street, roundabout 10 houses on either side. Engineering - no idea, but I’m assuming there was a project already, but nobody to do the physical work.
Cool example. I did think twice before saying a community can’t build a bridge or dam
You were right there - it depends. If a beaver can build a dam, so can a community. A community probably won’t build the Hoover Dam, though - unless the community is hundreds of thousands of people (that can allocate several thousand to designing and building the thing). Same for bridges. In my country the leftover DIY mentality from the harder times in history is so strong, if you have a stream running through your property and you need a bridge over it, you build it yourself, or get your family or friends together to do it together. Usually that would mean pedestrian bridges of course. BUT I’ve also driven my car over wooden bridges that looked like they were built by the very small local community and felt very sturdy. That would be to go to the parking lot of a nature trail of course, not something on a public highway lol
I agree with all that. I just speak out in these dumb threads where people say things like “you can literally just remove the capitalist from the picture and nothing changes.” Capitalism needs to be reformed, not discarded, and it certainly doesn’t need to be misunderstood completely (as some others here seem to be doing).
My dad did his MBA dissertation on places that have no liquidity markets and it’s very ugly when there is no capital to grease the gears. He then spent 30 years approving small business loans for a bank. So I guess you could say that I have a proud family tradition of valuing capital. But the world keeps minting teenagers who think the world would somehow just keep going without it.
It’s not the only way things can ever get done under any circumstances. But for the guy to say you can remove it and get the same result is BS. And if we’re being real, capital drives some things that collective village action never could, like advances in medicine. And capital drives things on a scale that collective village action never does. Everyone thinks there isn’t enough housing but most of what we have was built with capital, not village collectivism. And we need more, the village needs something done, so where’s that village collectivism? Fact is a village can erect shantytowns in rural India but it can’t out in sewage lines and pour foundations for a new housing project.
See that’s funny because when the street my ancestral is on was being built out, that’s literally what happened. The folks building the houses got together and did the sewage lines for the street. This was way before my time, but that’s what my grandpa told me, anyway.
Also this was the 1980s in what was then a soviet republic, so obviously everyone built their own houses, there was no construction company to hire, people were lucky enough to be allocated plots they could build on in the first place.
Cool example. I did think twice before saying a community can’t build a bridge or dam, because I’m sure it has happened. Apparently sewers as well. I’d love to know more, like what they did for equipment and engineers, not to mention sanitation during the project.
I do think that people mustering the wherewithal to provide themselves with essential services in a failing state does say something larger here about the capitalism topic though. In the capitalist US of the 1980s, people didn’t have to band together to provide their own sewers.
It’s cool that these folks did. Does that really show that capital has no benefit? I still don’t think so.
Capital is just a motivator for people not otherwise invested in the project, really. These projects can be done without capital if enough people agree they’re beneficial.
Now, people’s skillsets differ so maybe a village’s folks aren’t enough to take on a project they desperately need - but even then, you don’t need capital to persuade someone from another village to join in and help. You could exchange labor of a different skillset (you help me build X, I help you with Y), etc.
As for equipment - they dug it with shovels, literally. It’s not a long street, roundabout 10 houses on either side. Engineering - no idea, but I’m assuming there was a project already, but nobody to do the physical work.
You were right there - it depends. If a beaver can build a dam, so can a community. A community probably won’t build the Hoover Dam, though - unless the community is hundreds of thousands of people (that can allocate several thousand to designing and building the thing). Same for bridges. In my country the leftover DIY mentality from the harder times in history is so strong, if you have a stream running through your property and you need a bridge over it, you build it yourself, or get your family or friends together to do it together. Usually that would mean pedestrian bridges of course. BUT I’ve also driven my car over wooden bridges that looked like they were built by the very small local community and felt very sturdy. That would be to go to the parking lot of a nature trail of course, not something on a public highway lol
You cannot simply just change society at will. Unless you want to burn it all down, it has to be done incrementally.
But people still do try to work towards collectivism, such as socialism and such, look at the NYC mayoral race for example.
Just because our system is what is now doesn’t mean it has to remain, things can change for the better.
I agree with all that. I just speak out in these dumb threads where people say things like “you can literally just remove the capitalist from the picture and nothing changes.” Capitalism needs to be reformed, not discarded, and it certainly doesn’t need to be misunderstood completely (as some others here seem to be doing).
My dad did his MBA dissertation on places that have no liquidity markets and it’s very ugly when there is no capital to grease the gears. He then spent 30 years approving small business loans for a bank. So I guess you could say that I have a proud family tradition of valuing capital. But the world keeps minting teenagers who think the world would somehow just keep going without it.