Good insights, and not just software developers, really. We don’t like ads, sensationalism, or anything reeking of bullshit. If we have to talk to someone to find out the price, the product may as well not exist.
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Here’s the thing… I want to be sold something. Not anything, but certain somethings. There was a brief time when Google AdSense was new that I was excited for the experience. (I now know how fucking stupid I was, but hey, I was young).
The idea that a new product aligned to my interests and designed with me in mind would be advertised to me instead of feminine hygiene products or mesothelioma lawsuit ads seemed awesome.
I do not want your bullshit hype machine alpha male inside club cool kid image peddled as the reason I should hand you my money. You’ve got the wrong guy. Tell me what it does with a side of what I can do with it. And the “what I can do with it” shouldn’t be “get laid”.
The idea that a new product aligned to my interests and designed with me in mind would be advertised to me instead of feminine hygiene products or mesothelioma lawsuit ads seemed awesome.
Broadly speaking, the problem with modern American advertisement isn’t the content so much as the volume. Tried to watch a football game a few weeks back and I barely saw any football being played. Every millisecond of screen time and every pixel of screen space that wasn’t a moving football was consumed by ads.
I was at an actual game a year ago, foolishly thinking being there was going to be a better experience. NOPE. Ads on the announcements. Ads at the endzones. Ads painted into the turf. I got solicited to buy shit as I was loading up my ticket and right inside the gate once I was scanned in. The whole interior of the stadium was a mall full of overpriced crap. Seats were branded. The food was branded. I was buying something and I was drowning in people trying to sell me more shit.
I don’t care if every single item on offer is something I might actually want. I can’t fucking breath for it all.
I think a slightly more insidious side to targeting ads is that even when they have the “right” product for you, it’s the shitier and overpriced one. The one that spent money on marketing instead of quality.
Spot on.
This… strikes me more as self-aggrandizing than informative.
Yes, many technical folks are put off by certain marketing tricks. Good marketers just use different techniques when targeting people in this market, when they bother to at all.
We’re not immune to manipulation; and thinking that we are makes us more susceptible to it.
But you need to remember that those targeted practices are very few in comparison to the volume of neuro-regular/non-technical folks.
So we arent peone to the same bullshit in regards to volume.
Bullshit
Funko pops. Lego. Star wars. Marvel
This article is about software tools, not those other things.
The phenomenon of fanboyism in Tech disproves that, IMHO.
Good marketing absolutely works on nerds. We will literally share cool ads (funny world best) with each other in the same way with memes, which is part of “viral marketing”.
At the same time though, those lame ads using low-grade, overused memes (usually the comic ones) trying to be edgy pretty much make me want to pass on a product. Crappy AI-gen ads are even worse.
But next time I go to Japan, I absolutely still want to try a Sakaeru gummy because THAT marketing campaign was just brilliant and entertaining
( https://youtu.be/LQsMp4Oo6xM )
I’ve also seen a few cool tech things in ads that I’ve looked into. Generally nothing I’ll grab right away but they often end up in a list of things that I potentially buy later when I’ve some free cash or the need. Aliexpress is pretty good with this as it tends to suggest neat tech things that are a cheap to add and fill that “free shipping” gap.
What DOESN’T work is cheap/lame broadside marketing with little to no product details. I don’t want a video as an ad - especially not one from an influencer who has no clue but looks pretty - but I’m happy to look up an actual product demo that includes key features/points.
Honestly though, the best thing is if the product demonstratibly works. This is especially true for FOSS-based products that have stuff I can try for free at home (personal use) or ones where the main product is usable for limited seats etc and has a commercial/premium license with value-add like AD/SAML group integrations or SSO/MFA.
That said, any asshole who cold-calls me pretending an existing business relationship to setup a marketing meeting is going on “the list”, and vendor “demos” that are just marketing slides aren’t far off on that either
I liked the ads and saw the candy in a japanese speciality shop.
The small packs with 5 pieces has a very artificial grape flavor.
Not my cup of tea tbh.
I am sympathetic to the frustration with and resistance to feeling marketed to, but this person just seems to lack self-awareness… And lack of awareness in general. Not a good look.
I won’t assume he’s representative of large swathes of developers 👀👀👀
Hey everybody, 'member “I just shipped my pants.”
I’ve had a theory for a while that most marketing is targeted at neurotypical people, and that it is therefore far less effective on some neurodivergent people. People love to act like neurodivergent people are immune to marketing and propaganda. Maybe the detail-oriented ness of someone with ASD does ruin a narrative, but I feel that it’s mostly just that people and companies aren’t used to targeting these demographics.
There probably were some ads in the past that might’ve (probably unintentionally) targeted people on the spectrum. The IBM Selectric ad from the 60’s instead of bullshitting about changing your lifestyle (like today’s car ads do) focuses on the product’s technological prowess.
Now I want one of those type elements as decoration
Nice try. This is just trying to get us to lower our guard and become complacent!
Yeah pretty much, i mean you cant just assume because someone is a developer that they have a brain but this sums up my relationship with all the sales people ive met in my career
Me: Hey i need information about your product
Sales: Hey id love to swing by and show you our product line. How many can we put you foen for? Can we schedule a call?
Me: finds a different vendor
I was always on the front lines of dealing with software vendors and I was just fine setting up a call. Now if the website wouldn’t give me so much as basic info and pricing, denied.
Related, one night I spend an hour researching bulk sandbag prices. Found ONE site that displayed my cost, no “call for pricing”.
Yeah I think sales people are so trained into being sales people that they dont actually know how to talk like a human being anymore.
Seriously, there is something about those guys. They just cant talk normally. Not everyone. I have met some of them that just talk normally. and are aware of their products pros and cons in relation to what you need. Those are useful.
On the other hands, nerds can have their own little annoying habits too. Sometimes they have no social skills at all and act like machines.
*down
Nah. Foen is salesspeak.
As someone who works in marketing. We are not ignorant to how people operate and how to get in front of them. Go to the sentence that “Management makes most of the decisions”. We’ll be aiming for the people who actually buy things. Unfortunately in B2B sales that is usually the CEO/CFO/VP who has very little time to read and learn and would rather someone call and explain everything to make a problem go away. Typically they are of an older generation and hate digital media and wouldn’t be caught dead on Reddit.
That said, I always say honestly sells itself. Embellishing the truth or straight up lies will only get you so far and it’s typically short term gains.
Agency’s love scummy marketing tactics. This because it’s good numbers to them and they could give a fuck what it does to the client. They just want them to see that the graph goes up sharply for the first month and than silently bleed them dry as it flattens out and they can push more tricks or services to make graph go up again.
Inhouse teams (like me) can’t shit where they eat, so have a more genuine strategy for the long term. We are vested in the well-being of our company.
Seems to me the difference between ethical and unethical marketing is the difference between trying to inform vs. influence your potential customer.
Products need a way to find customers, and customers need a way to find products - this is the problem marketing should be solving. Instead I see businesses hiring people trying everything but just informing customers.
Has anyone been to any kind of convention for nerdy things. Nerds are so captured by the marketing and products being sold that they let it take over their personality and they can’t stop buying junk.
Yeah, this is self-aggrandizement from a group of people who consistently believe they’re smarter than everybody else, when in reality they just lack self-awareness. Nerds will smugly post in this thread using their overpriced mechanical keyboard as a wall of Funko pops and Star Wars slop looms behind them. I worked in marketing for a long time and I know damn well I’m not immune to it.
I believe that thinking you’re immune to something makes you even more vulnerable, because it creates a cognitive blind spot. If you think you can’t make mistakes, you don’t stop to wonder if you are making one.
Pretty much, yeah.
The article points out how a bunch of specific techniques don’t work on programmers. That’s because they’re aimed at project managers, not programmers. And yeah, they work. Hardly any programmers willingly chose Jira for their ticketing system, but project managers love that shit, and it’s everywhere.
All it really means is that it takes a different set of marketing techniques to reach programmers. They generally don’t bother, because programmers don’t typically control the budget directly.
I got a curved, split, tented ortholinear monstrosity with a built in trackball and I’m finally done. I get that it’s stupid and a waste of money but my hands feel so good typing all day on it
I did too. I didn’t get it to look cool, I got it because I have carpal tunnel and I don’t want to have surgery.
I like the clicky, it allows me to type longer, and I can fidgit with the firmware and do what I want with it.
If I got it because it looks techy then I’d just be a poser
I disagree, I don’t fall into the category you stated. My walls are lined with 80s memorabilia and 3d printed things I have created. I reject anything advertised to me and will only purchase tech that I have sought out that meets my needs.
If this irony, good job because I think most people will fall for it.
I don’t think it is. I know a few people like this, and im heading in that direction myself. The only kinds of “ads” that work on me are when a number of equally nerdy people I know find a new thing, and they’ve demonstrated that it has helped them with something or they are genuinely enjoying using it. Like 3D printing. Its semi-pointless most of the time but it is a genuinely fun hobby, which when combined with 3D modeling and post-processing skills becomes an actual craft. I didn’t get into it until a good number of people around me did.
80s memorabilia and 3D printers are not exempt form marketing. They are products just like anything else.
3D printers are not exempt form marketing
Case in point: Bambu and Autodesk sponsoring every maker Youtuber. (Fuck both Bambu and Autodesk, BTW.)
You just described Geeks. Geek and Nerd group labels can sometimes apply to the same people, but they are not synonymous, and a person can be one without the other.
Geeks are enthusiasts who collect and engage with specific topics, often focusing on trends and memorabilia, while nerds are more academically inclined, concentrating on mastering knowledge and skills in their areas of interest. Both terms can overlap, but they emphasize different aspects of passion and expertise.
https://laist.com/shows/take-two/whats-the-difference-between-a-geek-and-a-nerd
I knew somebody would try to play that card. People who insist on that distinction are the least self-aware of all.
You’re resorting to personal attacks without knowing who I am, what I do, what I do or don’t have on the wall behind me. You apply a blanket label on all people who you class a certain way, and when I disagree with your label and its implications, and recommend nuance, you class me further.
It sounds like you think very highly of yourself, or lowly of everyone else, or both.
What makes your opinions here worthwhile?
You are not immune to marketing (or to propaganda in general). The more you become at ease with that fact, the better equipped you will be to deal with the deluge of shit that is coming for all of us.
What makes your opinions here worthwhile?
As I said in another reply, I worked in marketing for a long time, so I have first-hand experience that most others here don’t. Many have a rather narrow definition of what they’re willing to label “advertising” and don’t realize how much is actually happening all around them. I’m applying a blanket label because the blanket is covering all of us, even those who fervently deny it and insist that it’s simply warm and cozy wherever they are.
Everyone arguing with this account needs to realize that they might as well be talking to an LLM. Look at how advertisers think:
https://www.goldennumber.net/wp-content/uploads/pepsi-arnell-021109.pdf
Just like an LLM can’t distinguish between truth and fiction they can’t distinguish between meaningful information and advertising BS. The people here will never win their argument against it because it classifies all human communication as an act of manipulation, so the definition of advertising will be made more and more broad until it says “look, you were swayed”.
They’re not nerds. They’re posers.
I don’t have a single funko pop or Star Wars toy or whatever. I have a Keychron keyboard that cost me $70, while it is more costly than the average membrane I like mechanical ones. I never buy new if I can (usually this is a time constraint, I.e I broke my phone and I need to replace it quick one because my job relies it). I Adblock everywhere I possibly can to not see the ads but I genuinely believe I’m immune to advertising.
I genuinely believe I’m immune to advertising.
You are not - you just don’t see it as such. Even if you didn’t use the internet at all (which we can see is not the case) you would still fall victim to its network effects.
Then they ain’t nerds, sorry.
Yeah, I think scottsman are the ones that are actually immune to marketing.
What say you to this example of a Scotsman that is infected with marketing?
Ah damn, my arguement must have completely come apart, because that’s absolutely a scottsman, and he is falling for the marketing. I don’t think there’s any comeback for that.
Posers. All of them.
Nerds enjoy a hobby, like tabletop games.
Posers buy Funkos and toys that they never open.
Nerds have fun. Posers try to look like they do.
Right? I’ve seen the walls of Funko Pops… nerds definitely are not immune to marketing.
do people actually buy those? I honestly thought they were some kind of money laundering thing. I’ve never once saw one sell.
Maybe it’s a whale thing, most people don’t give a shit but the people who do have to buy all of them to sate their neurosis
Working in tech, I’ve seen a lot of them in people’s cubicles.
They aren’t fucking nerds then. Nerds don’t buy Funko Pops.
I can name 3 or 4 people who own walls of Funko pops and I can tell you they wouldn’t know an IDE from MS Word. None of them went to college either.
They’re posers.
If you say so… but some of the Funko collectors I know are definitely die-hard nerds. Having bad taste doesn’t exclude you from nerddom.
Yeah but I don’t think that’s marketing, if you’re going to a con for something, you’re likely very passionate about it and passionate people love to scoop up everything they can that relates to their beloved hobby or franchise.
Also, nerds tend to have a good amount of disposable income on that stuff
Is that marketing or is it just finding stuff they want to own?
It’s marketing making them think they want to own that stuff.
How do you think you “found” it? A whole supply chain of people, from branding to packaging to advertising, made it so that you can “find” things on websites that are themselves outright advertisements or at least funded by them.
It’s a mistake to attribute purchases to marketing just because a marketer breathed the same air at some point. First-degree advertising influence and umpteenth-degree influence are very very different.
I mean, I probably wouldn’t buy a car from a company I’d never heard of, but that’s mainly because there are none. If I happened to buy a car from <insert company here> after researching what was available, I wouldn’t attribute that to <insert company here>'s marketing department. At least, not unless they bribed the independent reviewers, ratings boards, etc.
Same deal with most of my tech purchases, except that in that space there often are brands I’ve never heard of. And I’m (usually) savvy enough to tell when they’re legit and when they’re not. (I know more than I ever wanted to know about SSD controllers and I’m kind of angry about it.)
You’re right that nobody is truly “immune” to marketing, but as a matter of degrees, there’s a big difference across groups. There are people out there who look at ads and register them as useful information. There are people who intentionally click on ad banners on Instagram, rather than treating them like digital leprosy. There are people who click on the first Amazon referral listicle they find on Google and then treat it like independent journalism. There are people who use GoDaddy, when the only possible reason anyone would is because that racecar driver is hot. These are not behaviors you should expect among the kind of nerds this article is talking about.
You’re right that nobody is truly “immune” to marketing, but as a matter of degrees, there’s a big difference across groups. There are people out there who look at ads and register them as useful information. There are people who intentionally click on ad banners on Instagram, rather than treating them like digital leprosy. There are people who click on the first Amazon referral listicle they find on Google and then treat it like independent journalism.
Perhaps, but I’d argue people who click on ads knowing full well it’s an ad are more enlightened than the
nerd- sorry, “geek” - who thinks they operate on a higher plane of existence, not knowing that Youtube review was bought and paid for or that Reddit post was made by an LLM.There are people who use GoDaddy, when the only possible reason anyone would is because that racecar driver is hot. These are not behaviors you should expect among the kind of nerds this article is talking about.
You’re really dating yourself with this reference, and I am by understanding it. Incidentally, who do you think bought all that gamer girl bathwater?
Same deal with most of my tech purchases, except that in that space there often are brands I’ve never heard of. And I’m (usually) savvy enough to tell when they’re legit and when they’re not. (I know more than I ever wanted to know about SSD controllers and I’m kind of angry about it.)
This is a bit different because it isn’t really an emotional decision - they are are fungible, functionality being equal. But would you choose, say, a computer case without caring about the way it looks or makes you feel?
Incidentally, who do you think bought all that gamer girl bathwater?
Honestly, I have no idea. Did people actually buy it? I thought the whole thing was a joke.
I’m not about to no-true-scotsman nerdhood here, but I will say that I don’t relate to whatever group bought into that. I’m just not that kind of nerd, I guess.
Which raises another point: there are no monolithic demographics of any significant size. Anytime you generalize about “nerds” (or any other group), nothing you say will be 100% correct across the board. Generalizations are still useful when viewed in terms of trends and distribution curves. It’s fair to say that men are taller than women even though there are short men and tall women. It would be more precise to say that the height distribution for men skews taller than for women, but I think most people intuitively understand the truth behind the simple, plain English generalization anyway, even if they don’t think of it in precise terms.
But would you choose, say, a computer acse without caring about the way it looks or makes you feel?
The way it looks: yes, absolutely. My current box is metallic black with a window. If I could’ve bought a functionally equivalent one with no window at the same price, I would have. If I could’ve bought a functionally equivalent one in hot pink for cheaper, I probably would have. (There is a functional aspect to appearance as well, since it’s in my field of vision and bright colors could be distracting, so I’d have to think about the pink. “Black” and “no window” are on my wanted-features list for this reason, but other factors can override those wants.)
The way it makes me feel: well, cramped space, bad cable management options, and poor airflow will make me feel bad, so…arguably? But I’d consider that a matter of functionality more than feeling.
I feel like at this point we should talk about the oft-neglected difference between marketing and advertising. There is an aspect of marketing that directs product development down a path toward what they understand people actually want. When done well, this is good. It should be the marketing department’s job to learn what problems people have with products in the field, and make sure those problems are addressed in future products. Advertising is a subset of marketing that tries to directly influence consumer behavior to buy whatever they’re trying to sell.
For example, there was probably a marketer involved in the location and design of my favorite coffee shop, and if they did their job well then they deserve credit for helping make the kind of place I enjoy sitting in. Cheers to them for that.
But I’m no more likely to go into Dunkin or Starbucks just because they are advertised incessantly. You might find that hard to believe, and I wouldn’t blame you! I can’t prove it to you. And I understand that among the general population, repeated exposure affects perception, and by extension behavior, in subtle and deeply-rooted ways. I don’t imagine that I am immune to the effects that, for example, cause preschool children to prefer the same food from McDonalds bags vs unbranded bags (see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17679662/). But we are more than our base nature, and these effects can be negated in practice. I suspect tech nerds in general have internalized stronger countermeasures than the general population. Not full immunity, because reality is too messy, but a notable resistance.
First off, thanks for the thoughtful and detailed reply.
Which raises another point: there are no monolithic demographics of any significant size. Anytime you generalize about “nerds” (or any other group), nothing you say will be 100% correct across the board. Generalizations are still useful when viewed in terms of trends and distribution curves. It’s fair to say that men are taller than women even though there are short men and tall women. It would be more precise to say that the height distribution for men skews taller than for women, but I think most people intuitively understand the truth behind the simple, plain English generalization anyway, even if they don’t think of it in precise terms.
Of course, and marketing itself works with generalizations about demographics and targetting etc. As in anything there are extreme outliers, but there’s definitely a bell curve, and I doubt most people are as near the poles as they think.
The way it looks: yes, absolutely. My current box is metallic black with a window. If I could’ve bought a functionally equivalent one with no window at the same price, I would have. If I could’ve bought a functionally equivalent one in hot pink for cheaper, I probably would have. (There is a functional aspect to appearance as well, since it’s in my field of vision and bright colors could be distracting, so I’d have to think about the pink. “Black” and “no window” are on my wanted-features list for this reason, but other factors can override those wants.)
Sounds lke you’re primarily a value shopper in this case, which is fair, but for every one of you there’s a r/battlestations poster who spent more for something aesthetic - and unlike others here I won’t start “no true nerd-ing” those people away out of convenience. I to a certain degree am one of them, and I’m definitely a nerd (as is everyone on Lemmy). I’m sure there are different things you choose to splurge on.
I feel like at this point we should talk about the oft-neglected difference between marketing and advertising. There is an aspect of marketing that directs product development down a path toward what they understand people actually want. When done well, this is good. It should be the marketing department’s job to learn what problems people have with products in the field, and make sure those problems are addressed in future products. Advertising is a subset of marketing that tries to directly influence consumer behavior to buy whatever they’re trying to sell.
In the industry we’d rarely refer to those people as marketers (more like “market research”, basically statisticians and much less cool) but you’re right that it’s on the same continuum. Focus groups fall in there too. I wouldn’t really count it in this argument though because for most of us it’s a fait accompli when we’re faced with whatever is on the store shelf. It isn’t something we can be “immune” to in any meaningful way, short of becoming a self-sufficient hermit.
But I’m no more likely to go into Dunkin or Starbucks just because they are advertised incessantly. You might find that hard to believe, and I wouldn’t blame you! I can’t prove it to you. And I understand that among the general population, repeated exposure affects perception, and by extension behavior, in subtle and deeply-rooted ways. I don’t imagine that I am immune to the effects that, for example, cause preschool children to prefer the same food from McDonalds bags vs unbranded bags (see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17679662/). But we are more than our base nature, and these effects can be negated in practice. I suspect tech nerds in general have internalized stronger countermeasures than the general population. Not full immunity, because reality is too messy, but a notable resistance.
But do you have a favourite coffee place, or restaurant? How about a favourite hotel chain? We often don’t realize all the subconscious triggers we’re subjected to.
It’s marketing.
Marketing. It is very effective.
Nerds in arrested development over a franchize is not the same as seeing any ad and then that makes them want to buy a product.
Really? Then why is Apple so popular among a subset of developers?
Have you ever tried to setup a development environment in Windows? Windows fucking sucks for development unless you’re committed to handing over wads of cash for a VS license, and even then it’s really only good if your okay using a bunch of proprietary MS stuff.
Actually yes, I do cross platform development on Windows, Mac, and Linux. Mac is by far the most work and breaks constantly.
Because Windows fucking sucks and Linux is a can of worms not everyone wants to deal with?
Apple isn’t free of sin, but it’s the simplest way to get a system that doesn’t actively work against you.
As much as I hate it, Apple has good products. And it’s enough for enough people to have active development community. By that point it’s catch 22.
Because it’s a Unix machine with support for business software.
You are not immune to propaganda
Nearly everyone thinks that they are immune, but we’re not, we just recognize some that probably wasn’t targeted at us. As far as I am concerned, the only way to not be influenced by propaganda would be to completely avoid it and be some sort of hermit.
Exactly. Blocking out ads wherever possible is the only way to not be influenced by advertising. At least it helps to know that one isn’t immune to it. That helps to counteract the effects somewhat, but don’t count on it if you aren’t actively keeping your defenses up.
I bet there are hermit influencers who post videos where they hold the latest chamberpot up to the camera and extol its virtues. Then they post a shelfie that shows their latest book haul about transcendental meditation and bushcrafting.
Do they just record the video to a usb drive, seal it in a bottle, and throw it in the ocean or something? Wouldn’t posting it online revoke their hermit status?
I guess if you only posted and never read the comments/otherwise consumed you’d still be safe. Just screaming into the void
Screaming into the void is fun until the void screams back.
Which is why developers don’t want to talk to a salesperson and would rather just try the tool.
Yes, that is the generalization that the article pushed. It’s not true, because developers are not homogeneous. The point of my statement is “if you are a developer, ignore this because it is not true. You don’t have some sort of power that makes you immune to marketing. You’re just as susceptible as the rest of us, just in a different way. Ya know, like everyone else is”
Which is my point. Devs know they’re susceptible and want to avoid the propaganda.
It’s the same reason most of them block ads.
Yeah, the thing about propaganda is that it works, and if it doesn’t work, then the propagandists will come up with something else that does work. The thing is that they’re constantly thinking about how to exploit you, while you’re thinking about other stuff.
So for example, I hate feeling like I receive a hard sell. So, if I am at a store and somebody tries to sell me something, I will not buy it, and in fact, I’ll probably assume the product is so shoddy that it can’t be sold without pressure. Same goes for popup ads online.
But if a marketer knows this about me, then they can definitely manipulate me. They just have to do it in a way that I don’t realize is marketing. And there are all sorts of campaigns like that.
Maybe some are. You may have fallen for some propaganda here.
No, they aren’t. Any one who thinks they are is more susceptible.
Humans are social creatures, propaganda is a social contagion.
The only people who could be would be those with no ties to anyone. Kind of a nonstarter for the whole “cooperative survival strategy” that humans got going on.
That’s propaganda.
I see what you’re saying, but I’m done talking about this. Your logic is circular at its base, so there’s nothing to talk about.
Yeah, I was just trying to prove a point that anything that’s a blanket statement saying everyone or no-one does something is invalid, unless it’s a physical constraint. (Even those break inside neutron stars and black holes.)
I agree with you that almost everyone is susceptible to propaganda, but to say that no one is immune is simply wrong. Anyway, sorry for being annoying and pedantic, but it was kind of on purpose.
Yeah, but maybe we don’t make that point on the statement that reminds people to be mindful of their beliefs and where they picked them up from. Feels like a thing that we should maybe encourage in people more, if anything.
But the article’s not talking about social humans. It’s talking about developers, probably the most antisocial humans to exist.
True, and having the hubris to think otherwise makes you even less immune.
