I could never trust or respect a second-term Trump voter. That says to me quite plainly that person doesn’t have any values, principles, or ideas. At least none that would be compatible with mine.
I remember the first term rhetoric. ‘Drain the swamp’ was high on the list. After Bernie got the shaft, it was tempting to vote for Trump, especially with how Clinton was viewed as heavily entrenched in the capitalist status quo.
Then my wife said that she wouldn’t ever vote for someone who came from a place of hate, and I very quickly changed my mind.
If I’m on a date and she tells me that she voted for Donald Trump, I’m asking for the check and walking the fuck out of there. Certain behaviors are deal breakers.
Are there honestly examples where two people significantly disagreed politically and got along with each other? Life itself is hard enough, I want a teammate not an oppressor.
I’m pretty staunchly left leaning and am friends with a MAGA supporter. If anything, he isn’t an outright bad person, he’s just…really ignorant and holds some very warped and manipulated views of reality. He tends to just see headlines and not think critically about what information he accepts as fact, instead operating primarily on emotion (shocker). I feel like I’ve changed his mind on a few things, but I’ll certainly never dig him entirely out of that trench, not that that’s really my place or goal. These days we mostly just avoid talking politics, probably because he’s sick of me debunking all the crap that comes out of his mouth lol.
You’re not really wrong, but what else should I do? It’s not like I let his bullshit slide and shrug it off and go “oh you!” I let him know when he’s wrong and why he’s wrong, and we can still remain friends. That’s a win in my opinion.
You say that like I’m the problem here. As if I don’t actively resist MAGA and MAGA thinking. Should I just completely abandon my friend and let him become an even worse version of himself, or should I apply resistance to his line of thought and help him see why he’s wrong?
Further polarization of the population only makes the issue worse, but do not for a second mistake my sentiment for idle support or acceptance.
I didn’t mean to imply you were wrong, and I’m sorry if I came across that way.
That book opened my eyes to how people passively accepting fascism think, and I think it’s a great way to understand how to talk to such people. That was all.
Then, perhaps giving them such a book might be a way to give them insight and might help them realise how their own thoughts are like those who were interviewed for the book. Like hey, I found this book interesting, what do you think sort of thing.
I didn’t mean to imply anything other than it might help.
e: also, it’s not a polarising book. It’s highly sympathetic
Ah, I apologize, I read into what you were saying completely wrong. Appreciate the recommendation and the clarifying follow up, and my apologies for immediately jumping to the defence.
Identity politics have reached such an extreme that people really are what they vote, and the politics reflect that.
Politics used to be more of “we both want the country to go the same way, we just disagree on how to get there.”
Now one side is “fuck democracy, ostracize the lgbtq people, bring on the brownshirts, fuck science and the climate, too!” With pretty broad support for many of those motives.
It’s not that the system has become important, it’s that the participants have debased the system to the lowest hanging fruit on the asshole tree.
When fascism (oppression) rises, the only things in the middle of the road are yellow lines and dead armadillos. You can either be on one side or the other, staying in the middle you’ll just end up dead.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that you aren’t a member of one of the demographics that the fascists are trying to oppress. Debating abortion rights as a woman of reproductive age is literally arguing for my right to live in the event that I accidentally get pregnant because a pregnancy would quite literally kill me. Arguing for LGBTQ+ rights is arguing for the rights of my sibling to exist or for my best friend to marry her soon-to-be wife. I have the privilege of being white, but for BIPOC, arguing for racial equality and justice is literally trying to convince bigots that they are actually humans with equal rights.
These discussions become significantly more taxing and distressing when you’re going in rhetorical circles with someone who is telling you to your face that they think you are less worthy of rights and that your life doesn’t matter to them.
Please, correct me if I’m wrong here, but this is something I see a lot from leftist cis-men and white leftists is the failure to recognize the toll these conversations take on those who are the direct targets of that bigotry.
I would wager that many of us were raised with some basic shared ethical values. Things like “if you break it, you repair, replace, or pay for it” or “if you make a mistake, learn from it and do better.”
Someone who repeatedly makes the same mistake without learning from it is a bad person. Voting for a Republican or conservative Democrat once could be called a mistake, but doing it repeatedly, denying the evidence of your eyes and ears and bank account — or worse, repeatedly participating in the widespread harm and oppression, and failing to fight against it after aiding them — makes you a bad person. Being tired, overworked, deceived, stupid, or any other excuse does not grant absolution. Actions have consequences, and therefore actions matter. Making a mess accidentally doesn’t make you a bad person, but failing to recognize a mistake and/or failing to correct it and/or doing it again does.
I would wager that many of us were raised with some basic shared ethical values. Things like “if you break it, you repair, replace, or pay for it” or “if you make a mistake, learn from it and do better.”
You see. That’s what I thought but it’s become apparent that ~35% of Americans didn’t learn these basic values, or if they did - they have chosen to disregard them.
I love my dad, but he is a brainwashed, socially inept fool who does whatever the church tells him because they speak for god and they provide him friendship and respect. He thinks I’m lost and has no idea how to approach me. I feel the same about him.
Maybe you’re idealizing the past? I was watching a Seinfeld episode from like 97 that was about Elaine liking a guy but she has to find out if he’s an anti abortion conservative before she goes further. So even in those days there was enough of a divide that people were talking about it. Go back to the 60s same thing, you weren’t gonna have left hippies dating right wing yuppies.
It’s important to find a partner who is not in support of whatever the fuck conservatives think they’re doing nowadays, especially for a woman who may feel vulnerable and doesn’t wanna fall into a pit with a guy who doesn’t share her values and sees her as less than himself
I disagree. I remember the 90s, and not only was abortion a very hot topic, but IVF was fairly new then, and there was enormous debate over whether it was ethical or should be outlawed because the religious right argued (vehemently) that, because it necessarily means many fertilised embryos were destroyed in the process, ‘babies’ were being killed. The ‘life begins at conception’ argument was in full force back then.
Not only were abortion clinics being bombed on the regular, but fertility clinics, too. It seemed rare for a while that you could go a week without hearing about a fertility-related doctor being killed in some way, sometimes in their own homes. Given the vitriol in the past few years, I’ve been surprised they’re not trying to outlaw IVF again (I think it’s only a matter of time).
The debate has been heated lately, but we haven’t hit 90s level of murder over it.
I’m more than okay with talking but would not advocate for anyone to date a Trump voter. That speaks to a profound lack of judgement / humanity that will eventually rear its head in the relationship. If someone voted for Trump but is then reformed, sure that could be considered om a case by case basis but otherwise it’s a hard stop for me and many people. Especially if any of the women in my life were dating a Trump supporter, I would be genuinely concerned for their safety.
no it makes them bad.
the only people that could’ve stomached voting for trump are racists or bigots… xenophobes….
….
if they weren’t one of those, there’s no way they’d be so ignorant as to not have heard him say some nazi, racist shit….
i could forgive someone for being naive for just about any other election, but not that.
The problem is with the fact that when the discussion about human rights, there is no middle ground. There is no compromise when it comes to human rights. Everyone deserves the same rights and protections, and if someone is trying to argue that people who have more melanin or aren’t completely cis-het deserve fewer rights, there is no middle ground to be had.
Thankfully, I’m married and don’t have to deal with this bullshit, but if I was dating these days, I would open with asking if they support my right to bodily autonomy and if their answer was anything besides “yes, absolutely”, I’d get up and leave. Although, if I had to try to date these days, I’d probably just date women because I’m bi and men can be a coin toss on basic safety.
Again I would not want to date a person that ignorant, and especially someone who would think a vote for Bernie was the same as Trump. Lastly we have always chose people over their stances.
Any women here who are pro choice went out of your way to date a abortion hating man?
It is worse now, literally women rather be trap in the woods with a bear then most men. Maybe it is time to look at ourselves in the mirror and figure out if we are the problem.
In general, when it comes to dating, it seems everyone really just wants the idea in their head and nothing else. I’m just glad I’m a person who doesn’t need someone else to feel whole.
I haven’t experienced this at all. I don’t doubt your experience and you’re not the only one saying this, but I wonder why our experiences are so different? I never really did the online dating thing though.
That’s because people are being kidnapped and murdered by the state now. Blame the side doing the kidnapping and murdering, and maybe fight back so we can go back to a time where political disagreement is not life or death.
there are thousands and thousands of median voters who have no idea what’s going on in politics and figure a vote for trump was the same as a vote for bernie was the same as a vote for clinton and so on. It doesn’t make them bad it makes them overworked, ignorant, tired or poorly educated.
God, I do so love reading liberal apologia. Fascism is at your door and all you can do is cry about how people aren’t doing enough to understand them.
The main problem is that, even more so than the past, people’s politics is their identity.
It’s their family, their church life, their friends, and possibly even their neighbors if they live in a particularly conservative area. The same is true for liberals.
Trying to change them is quite literally like trying to change how they were raised, who they associate with, etc. In some cases, they may even be ostracized for “changing sides” if people found out.
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I could never trust or respect a second-term Trump voter. That says to me quite plainly that person doesn’t have any values, principles, or ideas. At least none that would be compatible with mine.
Can’t trust the principals of a second term, but you can’t trust the basic reasoning of the first term.
He’s never been that coy about what he wants to do.
I remember the first term rhetoric. ‘Drain the swamp’ was high on the list. After Bernie got the shaft, it was tempting to vote for Trump, especially with how Clinton was viewed as heavily entrenched in the capitalist status quo.
Then my wife said that she wouldn’t ever vote for someone who came from a place of hate, and I very quickly changed my mind.
He meant drain the swamp into DC not out :)
Ohhh, I missed that part somehow.
If I’m on a date and she tells me that she voted for Donald Trump, I’m asking for the check and walking the fuck out of there. Certain behaviors are deal breakers.
Yeah but I don’t want to be around fascist enablers so no, I won’t be compromising.
Are there honestly examples where two people significantly disagreed politically and got along with each other? Life itself is hard enough, I want a teammate not an oppressor.
I’m pretty staunchly left leaning and am friends with a MAGA supporter. If anything, he isn’t an outright bad person, he’s just…really ignorant and holds some very warped and manipulated views of reality. He tends to just see headlines and not think critically about what information he accepts as fact, instead operating primarily on emotion (shocker). I feel like I’ve changed his mind on a few things, but I’ll certainly never dig him entirely out of that trench, not that that’s really my place or goal. These days we mostly just avoid talking politics, probably because he’s sick of me debunking all the crap that comes out of his mouth lol.
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This sounds like something right out of 1930s Germany.
You’re not really wrong, but what else should I do? It’s not like I let his bullshit slide and shrug it off and go “oh you!” I let him know when he’s wrong and why he’s wrong, and we can still remain friends. That’s a win in my opinion.
Read They Thought They Were Free by Milton Mayer. Then lend it to your friend.
You say that like I’m the problem here. As if I don’t actively resist MAGA and MAGA thinking. Should I just completely abandon my friend and let him become an even worse version of himself, or should I apply resistance to his line of thought and help him see why he’s wrong?
Further polarization of the population only makes the issue worse, but do not for a second mistake my sentiment for idle support or acceptance.
I didn’t mean to imply you were wrong, and I’m sorry if I came across that way.
That book opened my eyes to how people passively accepting fascism think, and I think it’s a great way to understand how to talk to such people. That was all.
Then, perhaps giving them such a book might be a way to give them insight and might help them realise how their own thoughts are like those who were interviewed for the book. Like hey, I found this book interesting, what do you think sort of thing.
I didn’t mean to imply anything other than it might help.
e: also, it’s not a polarising book. It’s highly sympathetic
Ah, I apologize, I read into what you were saying completely wrong. Appreciate the recommendation and the clarifying follow up, and my apologies for immediately jumping to the defence.
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Identity politics have reached such an extreme that people really are what they vote, and the politics reflect that.
Politics used to be more of “we both want the country to go the same way, we just disagree on how to get there.”
Now one side is “fuck democracy, ostracize the lgbtq people, bring on the brownshirts, fuck science and the climate, too!” With pretty broad support for many of those motives.
It’s not that the system has become important, it’s that the participants have debased the system to the lowest hanging fruit on the asshole tree.
When fascism (oppression) rises, the only things in the middle of the road are yellow lines and dead armadillos. You can either be on one side or the other, staying in the middle you’ll just end up dead.
I don’t think that was up for debate.
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Fact-checking deadass doesn’t work anymore, unfortunately. A lot of these people are anti-science and anti-equality.
And if not that, then they just care so much about being a “good Christian” that they are willing to look the other way and ignore evidence.
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I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that you aren’t a member of one of the demographics that the fascists are trying to oppress. Debating abortion rights as a woman of reproductive age is literally arguing for my right to live in the event that I accidentally get pregnant because a pregnancy would quite literally kill me. Arguing for LGBTQ+ rights is arguing for the rights of my sibling to exist or for my best friend to marry her soon-to-be wife. I have the privilege of being white, but for BIPOC, arguing for racial equality and justice is literally trying to convince bigots that they are actually humans with equal rights.
These discussions become significantly more taxing and distressing when you’re going in rhetorical circles with someone who is telling you to your face that they think you are less worthy of rights and that your life doesn’t matter to them.
Please, correct me if I’m wrong here, but this is something I see a lot from leftist cis-men and white leftists is the failure to recognize the toll these conversations take on those who are the direct targets of that bigotry.
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I would wager that many of us were raised with some basic shared ethical values. Things like “if you break it, you repair, replace, or pay for it” or “if you make a mistake, learn from it and do better.”
Someone who repeatedly makes the same mistake without learning from it is a bad person. Voting for a Republican or conservative Democrat once could be called a mistake, but doing it repeatedly, denying the evidence of your eyes and ears and bank account — or worse, repeatedly participating in the widespread harm and oppression, and failing to fight against it after aiding them — makes you a bad person. Being tired, overworked, deceived, stupid, or any other excuse does not grant absolution. Actions have consequences, and therefore actions matter. Making a mess accidentally doesn’t make you a bad person, but failing to recognize a mistake and/or failing to correct it and/or doing it again does.
You see. That’s what I thought but it’s become apparent that ~35% of Americans didn’t learn these basic values, or if they did - they have chosen to disregard them.
It is no longer a political issue.
We do not agree on a core values level anymore.
I love my dad, but he is a brainwashed, socially inept fool who does whatever the church tells him because they speak for god and they provide him friendship and respect. He thinks I’m lost and has no idea how to approach me. I feel the same about him.
Maybe you’re idealizing the past? I was watching a Seinfeld episode from like 97 that was about Elaine liking a guy but she has to find out if he’s an anti abortion conservative before she goes further. So even in those days there was enough of a divide that people were talking about it. Go back to the 60s same thing, you weren’t gonna have left hippies dating right wing yuppies. It’s important to find a partner who is not in support of whatever the fuck conservatives think they’re doing nowadays, especially for a woman who may feel vulnerable and doesn’t wanna fall into a pit with a guy who doesn’t share her values and sees her as less than himself
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I disagree. I remember the 90s, and not only was abortion a very hot topic, but IVF was fairly new then, and there was enormous debate over whether it was ethical or should be outlawed because the religious right argued (vehemently) that, because it necessarily means many fertilised embryos were destroyed in the process, ‘babies’ were being killed. The ‘life begins at conception’ argument was in full force back then.
Not only were abortion clinics being bombed on the regular, but fertility clinics, too. It seemed rare for a while that you could go a week without hearing about a fertility-related doctor being killed in some way, sometimes in their own homes. Given the vitriol in the past few years, I’ve been surprised they’re not trying to outlaw IVF again (I think it’s only a matter of time).
The debate has been heated lately, but we haven’t hit 90s level of murder over it.
I’m more than okay with talking but would not advocate for anyone to date a Trump voter. That speaks to a profound lack of judgement / humanity that will eventually rear its head in the relationship. If someone voted for Trump but is then reformed, sure that could be considered om a case by case basis but otherwise it’s a hard stop for me and many people. Especially if any of the women in my life were dating a Trump supporter, I would be genuinely concerned for their safety.
no it makes them bad.
the only people that could’ve stomached voting for trump are racists or bigots… xenophobes….
….
if they weren’t one of those, there’s no way they’d be so ignorant as to not have heard him say some nazi, racist shit….
i could forgive someone for being naive for just about any other election, but not that.
The problem is with the fact that when the discussion about human rights, there is no middle ground. There is no compromise when it comes to human rights. Everyone deserves the same rights and protections, and if someone is trying to argue that people who have more melanin or aren’t completely cis-het deserve fewer rights, there is no middle ground to be had.
Thankfully, I’m married and don’t have to deal with this bullshit, but if I was dating these days, I would open with asking if they support my right to bodily autonomy and if their answer was anything besides “yes, absolutely”, I’d get up and leave. Although, if I had to try to date these days, I’d probably just date women because I’m bi and men can be a coin toss on basic safety.
If so, this magical median voter is so poorly informed that they are not worth your time.
Again I would not want to date a person that ignorant, and especially someone who would think a vote for Bernie was the same as Trump. Lastly we have always chose people over their stances.
Any women here who are pro choice went out of your way to date a abortion hating man?
It is worse now, literally women rather be trap in the woods with a bear then most men. Maybe it is time to look at ourselves in the mirror and figure out if we are the problem.
In general, when it comes to dating, it seems everyone really just wants the idea in their head and nothing else. I’m just glad I’m a person who doesn’t need someone else to feel whole.
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I haven’t experienced this at all. I don’t doubt your experience and you’re not the only one saying this, but I wonder why our experiences are so different? I never really did the online dating thing though.
That’s because people are being kidnapped and murdered by the state now. Blame the side doing the kidnapping and murdering, and maybe fight back so we can go back to a time where political disagreement is not life or death.
The median voter is a privileged dumbfuck who has no consistent set of values to begin with.
God, I do so love reading liberal apologia. Fascism is at your door and all you can do is cry about how people aren’t doing enough to understand them.
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Tell me, how does one go about changing a fascist?
The main problem is that, even more so than the past, people’s politics is their identity.
It’s their family, their church life, their friends, and possibly even their neighbors if they live in a particularly conservative area. The same is true for liberals.
Trying to change them is quite literally like trying to change how they were raised, who they associate with, etc. In some cases, they may even be ostracized for “changing sides” if people found out.
It’s just not feasible.