since they are by definition far beyond our technology, it may not be up to us
since they are by definition sentient beings (op said “civilization”), then how are they any different. When we say “human” it’s just that it’s the only sentient being we’re familiar with. Anything applying to a “human” most likely applies to any sentient being. “Seizing the means of production” might be analogous to like Ethiopia seizing from the US. Good luck with that, see the first point
statistically those aliens are almost certainly microbes, which have no opinion or rights. It’s all on us whether we preserve them as a unique or beneficial (to us) form of life. They’re no different than a coral reef
Sapient, not sentient. Sci-fi has co-opted the word, but sentient basically means able to feel emotions. There are plenty of sentient species right here at home. Sapient is the word sci-fi usually wants, there are no known sapient species aside from humans. Though some may argue that a couple other animals may qualify, it’s a very fuzzy concept that is hard to identify with a being unable to communicate abstract concepts.
i would absolutely say there are other sapient species, we just don’t like to think of them as such. Obviously a lot of aquatic mammals come to mind, but I think there’s a very very good case to argue that cephalopods, elephants, some aquatic mammals, and some birds are sapient. Especially by sci-fi rules. I think there’s sufficient evidence to show that elephants, dolphins, and maybe corvids or cephalopods would pass the trial of Commander Data and be considered intelligent and sapient life.
Thanks for the fascinating rabbit hole …. Popping my head back up: it seems like no. It actually reminds me a lot of the term “artificial intelligence” where every time it’s demonstrated, the definition changes. So the question really is whether we move the goalposts or whether we just define the intended meaning poorly.
To me it looks like both terms have an implied “like a human” that has not yet been met. When an animal achieves the definition of sapient, it’s the definition that’s wrong because accepted use implies “like a human”.
And of course the real answer in both cases is to use more precise terms. That’s where things get really interesting
We have no right to judge intelligence purely through our perception of intelligence, rather we must seek to broaden our understanding and view of intelligence and sapience. Yes there aren’t any other species that are sapient like humans, but then there are very very few species that are like humans. Dolphins and other aquatic mammals are known to have complex social structures and languages, and are very evidently self aware and able to comprehend themselves and their existence. Are we to deny their sapience simply because they don’t have economies of scale or what we perceive as civilization? I would argue that dolphins, elephants, whales, and some birds have formed (by our standards) rudimentary civilizations that are practical and necessary for their survival.
If we expand the concept, i would argue that similar things could be said about insects/bugs if we aggregate the intelligence. Ants have colonized every continent except for Antarctica. They have complex social structures and very clear markers of civilization. The only difference is that they function as a collective rather than as an individual. Are we to say that the Borg are not sapient because their civilization is predicated on the collective rather than the individual? The biggest thing I would have against calling ants sapient is that I am unsure of how self aware the collective is, but is that a necessity for sapience? To what degree is it necessary? Are we basing this off of a model of ourselves, of which only we fit into? Do we even have the right to demarcate what is and isn’t intelligent, sentient, and/or sapient? I would posit no to a lot of these questions, especially given that I also think we are a lot less intelligent and sapient than we think we are. I don’t believe a truly intelligent and sapient being would judge the intelligence and sapience of another being, but simply accept that it is as it is.
Of particular note as I sit here petting my dog, is the example of self-awareness in dogs. Historically dogs don’t seem to exhibit self-awareness, but we used a mirror test and dogs aren’t as visual. A sniff test, using their dominant sense, shows they are
If an alien can travel to meet us, and we have nowhere near the technology that we could travel to them, then yes they are far beyond our level of technology.
Since the question mentioned “civilization”, these are sapient beings, not just microbes or animals of some sort. While there’s still a chance of primitive life in our solar system, sapient life pretty much implies travel from outside the solar system and we can only do that in our fiction
At present, yes. The hypothetical is in the future, possibly in one where we’ve developed interstellar travel and we can be the ones visiting the alien planet.
Why is it not answered?
There’s always a scenario like “District 9”, which involves a spaceship full of uneducated workers in a ship whose technology they don’t understand.
Also the simple possibility that it’s us that explores our way out to them, rather than the other way around
That makes A great movie plot but it seems awfully far fetched , even in the reality where aliens visit us
Sapient, not sentient. Sci-fi has co-opted the word, but sentient basically means able to feel emotions. There are plenty of sentient species right here at home. Sapient is the word sci-fi usually wants, there are no known sapient species aside from humans. Though some may argue that a couple other animals may qualify, it’s a very fuzzy concept that is hard to identify with a being unable to communicate abstract concepts.
i would absolutely say there are other sapient species, we just don’t like to think of them as such. Obviously a lot of aquatic mammals come to mind, but I think there’s a very very good case to argue that cephalopods, elephants, some aquatic mammals, and some birds are sapient. Especially by sci-fi rules. I think there’s sufficient evidence to show that elephants, dolphins, and maybe corvids or cephalopods would pass the trial of Commander Data and be considered intelligent and sapient life.
Thanks for the fascinating rabbit hole …. Popping my head back up: it seems like no. It actually reminds me a lot of the term “artificial intelligence” where every time it’s demonstrated, the definition changes. So the question really is whether we move the goalposts or whether we just define the intended meaning poorly.
To me it looks like both terms have an implied “like a human” that has not yet been met. When an animal achieves the definition of sapient, it’s the definition that’s wrong because accepted use implies “like a human”.
And of course the real answer in both cases is to use more precise terms. That’s where things get really interesting
We have no right to judge intelligence purely through our perception of intelligence, rather we must seek to broaden our understanding and view of intelligence and sapience. Yes there aren’t any other species that are sapient like humans, but then there are very very few species that are like humans. Dolphins and other aquatic mammals are known to have complex social structures and languages, and are very evidently self aware and able to comprehend themselves and their existence. Are we to deny their sapience simply because they don’t have economies of scale or what we perceive as civilization? I would argue that dolphins, elephants, whales, and some birds have formed (by our standards) rudimentary civilizations that are practical and necessary for their survival.
If we expand the concept, i would argue that similar things could be said about insects/bugs if we aggregate the intelligence. Ants have colonized every continent except for Antarctica. They have complex social structures and very clear markers of civilization. The only difference is that they function as a collective rather than as an individual. Are we to say that the Borg are not sapient because their civilization is predicated on the collective rather than the individual? The biggest thing I would have against calling ants sapient is that I am unsure of how self aware the collective is, but is that a necessity for sapience? To what degree is it necessary? Are we basing this off of a model of ourselves, of which only we fit into? Do we even have the right to demarcate what is and isn’t intelligent, sentient, and/or sapient? I would posit no to a lot of these questions, especially given that I also think we are a lot less intelligent and sapient than we think we are. I don’t believe a truly intelligent and sapient being would judge the intelligence and sapience of another being, but simply accept that it is as it is.
The Wikipedia article on animal consciousness has an interesting discussion
Of particular note as I sit here petting my dog, is the example of self-awareness in dogs. Historically dogs don’t seem to exhibit self-awareness, but we used a mirror test and dogs aren’t as visual. A sniff test, using their dominant sense, shows they are
How so? Aliens aren’t going to suddenly come into existence and have super-human technology in that same instant.
If an alien can travel to meet us, and we have nowhere near the technology that we could travel to them, then yes they are far beyond our level of technology.
Since the question mentioned “civilization”, these are sapient beings, not just microbes or animals of some sort. While there’s still a chance of primitive life in our solar system, sapient life pretty much implies travel from outside the solar system and we can only do that in our fiction
At present, yes. The hypothetical is in the future, possibly in one where we’ve developed interstellar travel and we can be the ones visiting the alien planet.