Are you nitpicking an ally for using “exclusive” instead of “principal”?
MapleEngineer doesn’t actually know for sure that he has never been attracted to a trans woman. So it’s important to correct him when he says he has an exclusive sexual interest in cis-women.
Is that your point? That failing to acknowledge the nuance that sexuality exists on a spectrum must be addressed confrontationally because it’s erasure?
Transphobia and homophobia are too often literally (yes, I mean literally) beaten into men. We have to work to unlearn it. If an ally says he wouldn’t be able to keep it up if he learned the woman he was courting was assigned male at birth, believe him, but don’t discount him as an ally. Imo your efforts are better spent combating active transphobia than policing your allies. If their terminology hurts you, suggest better ways to articulate their points but do it collaboratively instead of confrontationally.
Having read about your experiences (elsewhere in the thread, you hadn’t posted them when I started my prior comment) I understand your reaction better.
I very clearly stated my preference. You’re trying to use pedantic arguments to invalidate my clearly stated preference. Are you suggesting that I shouldn’t be allowed to have a preference or that people who don’t like that preference or don’t think I should have that preference should be allowed to simply ignore my preference?
I think that your “preference” is based on very sloppy thinking rooted in ambient transphobia. I think you are also confusing a desire for precision of thought with being pedantic.
I think you’re trying to imply that preferences are neutral facts. I think you should consider how you’d react to someone saying “I am only attracted to white women” or “I am only attracted to 18 y/o women”. Do you think their preference is a neutral fact or an expression of something?
Oh, also, expression of “preference” is different than having a preference. Ask why you felt the need to say it in this thread.
At minimum keep it to yourself. Ask yourself what the utility of saying it is. Because what I read is “I support trans people but I still find them gross personally because if I don’t say that people will think I’m a f*g”
So you’re telling me that I should stay in the closet because you don’t like my chosen lifestyle?
Do you hear what you’re saying?
Ask yourself what the utility of saying it is.
The meme was about people who use “cis” as an insult and the people who find it insulting. My comment completely disarms the fanatics who use “cis” as a slur by embracing the word the way that it was originally intended to be used AND by using it in a way that those fanatics don’t like.
“I support trans people but I still find them gross personally”
This is an utterly ridiculous straw man. Literally worthy of ridicule. These are bad arguments and you should be ashamed to have made them.
You clearly don’t have anything to say that is worth of discussion.
This is an utterly ridiculous straw man. Literally worthy of ridicule. These are bad arguments and you should be ashamed to have made them.
Yeah, let me just page up all the trans
and feminist academics writing on stigma theory as it relates to misogyny and transmisogyny and let them know that they are wrong, that cis men are never afraid of being tainted by an association with women or queer people
Or maybe you’re just wrong and defensive, which is 1000 times worse than just being wrong and learning from being wrong, which is a normal human thing.
When your online ego isn’t on the line I’d suggest reading Sexed Up by Julie Serano.
Well read on transmisogyny? How do you want me to point out to you that you’re incorrect? Like, earnestly, what is the right way to point out to someone that they’re being bigoted when they don’t know they’re being bigoted?
I know more on this than you
on a personal level- plenty of men hit on me and then when I speak in my non-passing voice to let them know I’m a lesbian react with disgust. Men who say they’d never be attracted to a trans woman have had no problem aggressively hitting on me
On an academic level- I’ve read a lot of feminist works on misogyny, and works on how transmisogyny operates.
You haven’t done enough study on the topic to have an opinion that you should personally stand by.
Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it. Isn’t that too harsh? Not in the least. When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense. Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak?
It’s also important to remember that “perfect” is the enemy of “good”. There will never be a perfect ally, because allies don’t have the same lived experience. But (I think) that allyship is still a good thing.
Hey, maybe instead of leaning on the “trap” meme that gets trans women brutally murdered you can actually engage with the content of what I’m saying.
Are you nitpicking an ally for using “exclusive” instead of “principal”?
Is that your point? That failing to acknowledge the nuance that sexuality exists on a spectrum must be addressed confrontationally because it’s erasure?
Transphobia and homophobia are too often literally (yes, I mean literally) beaten into men. We have to work to unlearn it. If an ally says he wouldn’t be able to keep it up if he learned the woman he was courting was assigned male at birth, believe him, but don’t discount him as an ally. Imo your efforts are better spent combating active transphobia than policing your allies. If their terminology hurts you, suggest better ways to articulate their points but do it collaboratively instead of confrontationally.
Just my two cents.
If you have issues with my tone maybe you should have raised the issue instead of me, because you obviously know how to do it better.
You can still collaboratively discuss with him why he is incorrect and how he is falling into ambient transmisogyny if you want.
Having read about your experiences (elsewhere in the thread, you hadn’t posted them when I started my prior comment) I understand your reaction better.
I’ll try to explain it to MapleEngineer.
I very clearly stated my preference. You’re trying to use pedantic arguments to invalidate my clearly stated preference. Are you suggesting that I shouldn’t be allowed to have a preference or that people who don’t like that preference or don’t think I should have that preference should be allowed to simply ignore my preference?
I think that your “preference” is based on very sloppy thinking rooted in ambient transphobia. I think you are also confusing a desire for precision of thought with being pedantic.
I think you’re trying to imply that preferences are neutral facts. I think you should consider how you’d react to someone saying “I am only attracted to white women” or “I am only attracted to 18 y/o women”. Do you think their preference is a neutral fact or an expression of something?
Oh, also, expression of “preference” is different than having a preference. Ask why you felt the need to say it in this thread.
I have a preference. Am I not allowded to have a preference that you disagree with? I should just accept what you want and keep my mouth shut?
At minimum keep it to yourself. Ask yourself what the utility of saying it is. Because what I read is “I support trans people but I still find them gross personally because if I don’t say that people will think I’m a f*g”
So you’re telling me that I should stay in the closet because you don’t like my chosen lifestyle?
Do you hear what you’re saying?
The meme was about people who use “cis” as an insult and the people who find it insulting. My comment completely disarms the fanatics who use “cis” as a slur by embracing the word the way that it was originally intended to be used AND by using it in a way that those fanatics don’t like.
This is an utterly ridiculous straw man. Literally worthy of ridicule. These are bad arguments and you should be ashamed to have made them.
You clearly don’t have anything to say that is worth of discussion.
Yeah, let me just page up all the trans and feminist academics writing on stigma theory as it relates to misogyny and transmisogyny and let them know that they are wrong, that cis men are never afraid of being tainted by an association with women or queer people
Or maybe you’re just wrong and defensive, which is 1000 times worse than just being wrong and learning from being wrong, which is a normal human thing.
When your online ego isn’t on the line I’d suggest reading Sexed Up by Julie Serano.
You have become what you hate.
Well read on transmisogyny? How do you want me to point out to you that you’re incorrect? Like, earnestly, what is the right way to point out to someone that they’re being bigoted when they don’t know they’re being bigoted?
I know more on this than you
on a personal level- plenty of men hit on me and then when I speak in my non-passing voice to let them know I’m a lesbian react with disgust. Men who say they’d never be attracted to a trans woman have had no problem aggressively hitting on me
On an academic level- I’ve read a lot of feminist works on misogyny, and works on how transmisogyny operates.
You haven’t done enough study on the topic to have an opinion that you should personally stand by.
I think you make some very good points.
It’s also important to remember that “perfect” is the enemy of “good”. There will never be a perfect ally, because allies don’t have the same lived experience. But (I think) that allyship is still a good thing.