The ammunition was dated at 1941. Further, Soviet weaponry fired entirely different cartridges.
As for the Soviets “admitting it,” it was the anti-communist factions that produced the “evidence,” and said evidence directly contains serious flaws that other official documentation did not have. The origin of the story is with Goebbels. The post-Stalin CPSU was filled with those seeking to undermine the Soviet Union for political gain, like Khrushchev and Gorbachev, and we also have evidence that Soviet officials falsified documents for political gain.
German-USSR trade was still ongoing in 1941. As part of that trade they did gain access to samples of German artillery, tanks and more. German companies were also known to export arms (in violation of the Versailles treaty) well before WWII. And even if you deny that, there were dozens of countries manufacturing arms and ammo in the German caliber because, get this, German guns were well designed!
Dismissing all evidence that could put Soviets in a bad light, even when it’s internal. Truly you are a Communist at heart.
So let’s put all that aside: capturing thousands of POWs and having them end up massacred in a ditch is acceptable? There’s no fault attributable to them for having this happen to people in their control and under their protection?
In order for the Soviets to have been guilty, it would have had to happen around 1939-1940. 1940 is the date Goebbels reported, and is accepted by those pinning it on the Soviets, because that would be when the Soviets most plausibly could have done it. Further, again, the Soviet weaponry did not fire German ammunition. The evidence in favor of the Nazis committing the Katyn Massacre are staggering, and the evidence provided by the anti-communist Yeltsin regime are flimsy at best.
Either way, putting it all aside, the Soviets did kill Polish soldiers that resisted them and/or cooperated with the Nazis, Slovak Republic, and OUN. They did not slaughter civilians like the Nazis did, certainly not children. There’s absolutely fault to be found in excess, but if we just accept Geobbels’ word for everything then that excess becomes parody and we remove ourselves from genuine analysis.
All of these were verified by the Red Cross and there are stacks of documents giving evidence and testimony to the contrary. But yes, I suppose if you throw out everything you don’t like then any argument will get flimsy. Certainly we don’t get “genuine analysis” as you put it.
Further, again, the Soviet weaponry did not fire German ammunition.
The NKVD was a police force, they were under no compulsion to use military issue weapons. There are other documented instances of them using foreign weapons, it’s not out of the ordinary.
This whole weapon discussion is circumstantial evidence at best, there are plenty of ways it could have happened. And of course Goebbels was eager to report it, it’s very well documented in his own records that he was excited about the find and the bad PR it would give the Soviets. The fact that you’re dismissing the general consensus that the international community has come to after decades of investigation just to maintain your own narrative is pretty disappointing.
America rightly draws criticism for their strong arm enforcement of “democratic values” through occupation, but you see no parallel to the USSR enforcing “Soviet values” through the same occupation strategy. You’ve got some massive blinders on.
So the evidence corroborating Goebbels supports the 1940 idea, despite Nazi ammunition dating 1941 was found, along with German rope, Nazi execution modus operandi, eyewitness reports corroborating that it was the Nazis that did it, and there’s tons of discrepancies from the anti-communist Yeltsin-regime released documents. Sounds like more proof that the Nazis did it. All this is is you taking a declarative stance that you trust the Nazis and the Red Scare-era west against modern historical investigation.
As for the soviets, they tended towards 2 directions: 1, national sovereignty and self-determination, as well as 2, support for socialist movements. They weren’t imperialist like the US is, so they didn’t stand to gain from the same economic compulsions that drive the US to plunder the global south.
Per our other conversation, the Soviets were trading for German finished goods. Why would you not expect to find German goods here??
And again, the Soviets themselves admitted to it. Why are you even discussing forgeries?
The ammunition was dated at 1941. Further, Soviet weaponry fired entirely different cartridges.
As for the Soviets “admitting it,” it was the anti-communist factions that produced the “evidence,” and said evidence directly contains serious flaws that other official documentation did not have. The origin of the story is with Goebbels. The post-Stalin CPSU was filled with those seeking to undermine the Soviet Union for political gain, like Khrushchev and Gorbachev, and we also have evidence that Soviet officials falsified documents for political gain.
German-USSR trade was still ongoing in 1941. As part of that trade they did gain access to samples of German artillery, tanks and more. German companies were also known to export arms (in violation of the Versailles treaty) well before WWII. And even if you deny that, there were dozens of countries manufacturing arms and ammo in the German caliber because, get this, German guns were well designed!
Dismissing all evidence that could put Soviets in a bad light, even when it’s internal. Truly you are a Communist at heart.
So let’s put all that aside: capturing thousands of POWs and having them end up massacred in a ditch is acceptable? There’s no fault attributable to them for having this happen to people in their control and under their protection?
In order for the Soviets to have been guilty, it would have had to happen around 1939-1940. 1940 is the date Goebbels reported, and is accepted by those pinning it on the Soviets, because that would be when the Soviets most plausibly could have done it. Further, again, the Soviet weaponry did not fire German ammunition. The evidence in favor of the Nazis committing the Katyn Massacre are staggering, and the evidence provided by the anti-communist Yeltsin regime are flimsy at best.
Either way, putting it all aside, the Soviets did kill Polish soldiers that resisted them and/or cooperated with the Nazis, Slovak Republic, and OUN. They did not slaughter civilians like the Nazis did, certainly not children. There’s absolutely fault to be found in excess, but if we just accept Geobbels’ word for everything then that excess becomes parody and we remove ourselves from genuine analysis.
All of these were verified by the Red Cross and there are stacks of documents giving evidence and testimony to the contrary. But yes, I suppose if you throw out everything you don’t like then any argument will get flimsy. Certainly we don’t get “genuine analysis” as you put it.
The NKVD was a police force, they were under no compulsion to use military issue weapons. There are other documented instances of them using foreign weapons, it’s not out of the ordinary.
This whole weapon discussion is circumstantial evidence at best, there are plenty of ways it could have happened. And of course Goebbels was eager to report it, it’s very well documented in his own records that he was excited about the find and the bad PR it would give the Soviets. The fact that you’re dismissing the general consensus that the international community has come to after decades of investigation just to maintain your own narrative is pretty disappointing.
America rightly draws criticism for their strong arm enforcement of “democratic values” through occupation, but you see no parallel to the USSR enforcing “Soviet values” through the same occupation strategy. You’ve got some massive blinders on.
So the evidence corroborating Goebbels supports the 1940 idea, despite Nazi ammunition dating 1941 was found, along with German rope, Nazi execution modus operandi, eyewitness reports corroborating that it was the Nazis that did it, and there’s tons of discrepancies from the anti-communist Yeltsin-regime released documents. Sounds like more proof that the Nazis did it. All this is is you taking a declarative stance that you trust the Nazis and the Red Scare-era west against modern historical investigation.
As for the soviets, they tended towards 2 directions: 1, national sovereignty and self-determination, as well as 2, support for socialist movements. They weren’t imperialist like the US is, so they didn’t stand to gain from the same economic compulsions that drive the US to plunder the global south.