The two arent equivalent, because socialists dont work with fascists or create the conditions fir fascism like liberals do, and supporting liberals supports the rise of fascism.
Liberals will work with whoever gives them the best chance to retain power. That could be socialists or fascists. By refusing to work with them, you leave the fascists as their only option to retain power. You create the exact environment fascism wants - a divided left.
Liberals are not the left, the longer they remain in power, the more fascism grows. When liberals work with fascists, they give them power. When liberals tell socialists to work with them, they mean “shut up and help us maintain the conditions that give rise to fascism”. Do you think if the socialists supported Hindenburg, Hindenburg would have given power to the people who dont want billionaires to exist? I dont get how this isn’t getting through, working with liberals is just another path to fascism.
I would argue that fascism is an inherent weakness of democracy that must be constantly guarded against. The public will always be vulnerable to those who would manipulate their worst impulses. Hate, fear, vengeance.
All who wish to preserve democracy need to band together. Anything else is secondary.
You’re not looking at this from a materialist perspective; people don’t just fall to hate, fear, vengeance or decide to support capitalism or socialism or whatever because they have a big discussion and decide that’s the best idea and would have decided something else if only someone made the right argument at the right time. Ideology, culture, etc, the superstructure, is determined by the structure, the relationship with means of production.
Liberalism is not a stable system; the rate of profit declines over time if new markets aren’t being added or capital destroyed. In response to declining conditions, the “middle class”, due to their privilege, aren’t going to question the system that privileged them, that leaves them with weird conspiracies blaming minorities and foreign countries for their declining conditions. The big bourgeoisie will always prefer this to socialism.
We could debate this all day, but it is irrelevant to the question of democracy. If we want democracy, everyone must band together to fight fascism. Fascism kills democracy.
Liberalism is incapable of fighting fascism, if liberals were to support the socialist project (this doesn’t happen), fine lmao, but for socialists to abandon creating an alternative to fascism to support liberalism, which is what liberals really mean when they say “work together”, is self-destructive.
We’ve seen what happens when liberals get their way; fascism grows stronger and any alternative is crushed, until liberals are ready to hand over power.
This is factually untrue if you learn history. The only times fascism was defeated is when capitalists, socialists, anarchists, liberals, leftists, etc join together against fascism.
You know liberals and capitalists are kinda the same thing? Liberalism is the philosophy of capitalism, and anarchists and socialists are both leftists?
Also the entire lead up to WW II had the socialists trying to ally with literally anyone to deal with Germany, but was rejected, as France and Britain signed Non-Aggression Pacts with Germany and gave them and Poland Czechslovakia in hope that Poland and Germany would invade the USSR and deal with what they perceived as a greater threat. Britain literally tried to join the winter war on the side of Finland and Germany.
The point is even in WWII, the liberals preferred fascism to socialism until they were literally being invaded, and if the socialists supported the liberals aims, the fascists would have won.
The two arent equivalent, because socialists dont work with fascists or create the conditions fir fascism like liberals do, and supporting liberals supports the rise of fascism.
Liberals will work with whoever gives them the best chance to retain power. That could be socialists or fascists. By refusing to work with them, you leave the fascists as their only option to retain power. You create the exact environment fascism wants - a divided left.
Liberals are not the left, the longer they remain in power, the more fascism grows. When liberals work with fascists, they give them power. When liberals tell socialists to work with them, they mean “shut up and help us maintain the conditions that give rise to fascism”. Do you think if the socialists supported Hindenburg, Hindenburg would have given power to the people who dont want billionaires to exist? I dont get how this isn’t getting through, working with liberals is just another path to fascism.
I would argue that fascism is an inherent weakness of democracy that must be constantly guarded against. The public will always be vulnerable to those who would manipulate their worst impulses. Hate, fear, vengeance.
All who wish to preserve democracy need to band together. Anything else is secondary.
You’re not looking at this from a materialist perspective; people don’t just fall to hate, fear, vengeance or decide to support capitalism or socialism or whatever because they have a big discussion and decide that’s the best idea and would have decided something else if only someone made the right argument at the right time. Ideology, culture, etc, the superstructure, is determined by the structure, the relationship with means of production.
Liberalism is not a stable system; the rate of profit declines over time if new markets aren’t being added or capital destroyed. In response to declining conditions, the “middle class”, due to their privilege, aren’t going to question the system that privileged them, that leaves them with weird conspiracies blaming minorities and foreign countries for their declining conditions. The big bourgeoisie will always prefer this to socialism.
We could debate this all day, but it is irrelevant to the question of democracy. If we want democracy, everyone must band together to fight fascism. Fascism kills democracy.
Liberalism is incapable of fighting fascism, if liberals were to support the socialist project (this doesn’t happen), fine lmao, but for socialists to abandon creating an alternative to fascism to support liberalism, which is what liberals really mean when they say “work together”, is self-destructive.
We’ve seen what happens when liberals get their way; fascism grows stronger and any alternative is crushed, until liberals are ready to hand over power.
This is factually untrue if you learn history. The only times fascism was defeated is when capitalists, socialists, anarchists, liberals, leftists, etc join together against fascism.
You know liberals and capitalists are kinda the same thing? Liberalism is the philosophy of capitalism, and anarchists and socialists are both leftists?
Also the entire lead up to WW II had the socialists trying to ally with literally anyone to deal with Germany, but was rejected, as France and Britain signed Non-Aggression Pacts with Germany and gave them and Poland Czechslovakia in hope that Poland and Germany would invade the USSR and deal with what they perceived as a greater threat. Britain literally tried to join the winter war on the side of Finland and Germany.
The point is even in WWII, the liberals preferred fascism to socialism until they were literally being invaded, and if the socialists supported the liberals aims, the fascists would have won.