I’m still salty about governments talking about maximized support, while Ukraine has to do the counterattack without western provided air support and scarce capability for taking out long range targets. If supporting Ukraine means just peace will come faster, then wouldn’t more support mean an even faster peace?
My quite cynical conclusion of this paradox is: NATO countries don’t want Ukraine to win fast, they want russia to lose slowly. They are okay with trading Ukrainian lives for a decade-long, demilitarized russia.
NATO countries prioritize lives of their own citizens over Ukrainian lives, and you can’t really blame them for that. However, i agree more should be done to help save Ukrainian lives and make Russia lose faster.
I agree about the capability for taking out long range targets, but as for direct support, that would mean that I’d have to grab a rifle and head to Ukraine myself, something that I’m really hoping it won’t come to.
I don’t think that’s what they meant.
Judging by the “long range targets” mentioned, I’d assume they’re talking about the precautions many Ukraine supporters are voicing, such as that providing Ukraine with proper longer-range equipment would be seen by Russia (Putin, more specifically, and some other old farts) as existential threat, leading to them actually nuking someone, or something along these lines. Basically the same old appeasement and careful treading around an old and delusional dictator.
Like you said, you hope you won’t have to go and fight for Ukraine (I don’t mean to sound offensive in any way, I just don’t know how to frame it better), and I think this is similar to what the leaders of the western nations have been feeling as well - hoping that they won’t have to send anything more than equipment and ammo that won’t provoke an even larger conflict.
But in all honesty, we’ve seen action in Russia for quite some time anyway, now with merciful drone attacks on Moscow and active combat in Belgorod (if I’m not mistaken). There’s a reason people like me don’t lead nations, but to me it seems like Ukraine is both capable of bringing war onto the Russian soil anyway, and has shown to do so in a strategic and insanely restrained way (I can easily imagine the drone attack on Moscow going a very different way than it did).
To me, it seems like giving Ukraine proper long-range equipment is not going to result in anything more than unambiguous defense, without avenger strikes that Putin can use for… whatever. And, well, after almost 1.5 years of war, one would think that if Putin was capable of doing something that the western leaders fear so much, he would already do it, as an unhinged tyrant like he is. Putin seems to care about his life, maybe his immediate family’s life, too, knowing full well that a nuclear strike is a sure way to make their life either extremely difficult in whatever way, or even end it prematurely (most likely, in extreme pain and/or fear). Not to mention that launching nukes takes way more than just one man pressing the button, or even three men - the people directly responsible for executing the order always have a change of turning out to be more sensible and not committing to the procedure; in the end, Russia must have more people willing to live, even among the nuclear personnel, rather than die for some absurd ambition that only one old sorry fuck shares.
Oh, and judging by the actual state of the Russian military that was revealed to us all after they invaded Ukraine, I seriously doubt they have anything worthwhile left in stock - might’ve ended up as a liquidated asset in a form of some general’s palace, yacht, or several apartments somewhere in the western world.
No offense taken, and I totally get your point. My comment was purely from my own selfish perspective, as my location, nationality and age means that any direct (as in physical boots on the ground or planes flown by personnel from any nato country) involvement from the west would include me.
I really hope that there’d be more direct ways to speed up and ensure Ukraines liberation and rebuilding, I regularly donate money as that feels like it’s the least I can do.
I’m sure this kind of concerns is one of the prime reasons that seems to “slow down” the support. I don’t want to whitewash anyone, but I’ll give credit when credit is due - the officials in the western(-oriented) countries do realize that they’re a temporary asset in their position, with a goal to contribute to the society that enables their entire lifestyle. While some may not be a proper fit for the position of such power, today many, if not everyone, realize that they’re going to have to step down sooner rather than later, and if they want to enjoy the benefits, they better make the electorate happy - today, this surely includes making sure that none of the electorate has to go die because Putin wanted some landgrab out of some pissy revenge and power-hunger.
We all want this war to end as soon as possible. Even Putin wants to, undoubtedly, but he’s too stupid and arrogant to withdraw and admit he made a mistake.
I get where you’re coming from. I don’t necessarily wish for military support that was operated (flown or boots on the ground), by nato countries. Early in the war I was hoping for a coalition aerial campaign to purely defend ukrainian territory, but I guess that’s no longer in the realm of possibilities.
IMO at the present time russia only has two steps left for escalation, nukes or general mobilization. Those steps would hopefully only be seen as viable, if russia was fighting actual nato personnel (they aren’t).
I don’t see the west providing the most effective military material possible (excl nukes ofc.) to Ukraine as a good enough reason russia to escalate with either option. That includes an actually meaningful amount of fighter jets, long range strike capabilities and enough armored equipment to make a real difference.
Saying that fighter jets aren’t cost effective is a moot point if you compare the price of equipping the military for one effective push in comparison to the cost of a prolonged war.
As long as “negotiate” means a full withdrawal of forces, and reparations.
Good. That prick needs a fire lit under his ass.
Only 1991 borders, Kuban and Belgorod would be a plus
What to do with Crimea population?
Fuck Putin!
